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Ministry for Men

Filed under: Boys / Youth / Education,Events,Gender Politics,General,Law & Courts — mama @ 11:14 am Thu 30th May 2019

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_87709/petition-of-stephan-mazur-create-a-ministry-for-men

PLEASE MAKE A DIFFERENCE, IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE TRIED TO GET A VOICE, THIS WILL GET TO PARLIAMENT, BUT IT CANNOT BE LAUGHED OUT OF PARLIAMENT, NOW IS THE TIME…AND NOW…AND NOW.

SEND THIS PETITION AROUND…NOW.

All the help in the world can not help Men once caught up in the Family Justice system, we need to get to Men prior to this with education and the only way change can be made in the system is with time and pressure, pressure from who?, those of us that care and support this petition so that Men have a voice in the system!!!!!!!

64 Responses to “Ministry for Men”

  1. Downunder says:

    Following the Above Link takes you to a home page for the petition.

    There is a [sign the petition] button in the centre of the page which takes you to a separate page to enter your details.

    As of today, one month’s signitures, comes to a total of 28.

  2. mama says:

    28!!!,,, I bloody well know!!!!!! spread it!!!!!

    ps, a million thanks for making the link.

  3. tony says:

    Ihaaa , i signed the petition

  4. mama says:

    YAAAAAAAY!!!,,,,send it around to others tooo.

  5. Downunder says:

    @3 I had a read of your link in that comment Mama.

    To condense that argument:

    Male supremacist religions needed Feminism and Ministry for Women to fix history.

    Now we need a Ministry for Men to fix that.

    I couldn’t help recalling a piece of the Moata Tamaira blog on Clementine Ford, and how she might respond.

    Quote

    On what men sometimes get wrong about feminism

    “It’s not about condemning men. It’s about saving men.”

    Unquote

    They’re trying but it’s not quite working out yet. That’s nice, we really love people who have good intentions to share.

    The upside, although I could see significant disagreement with that argument, is that at least there was an argument for the demand.

    What argument would you put forward to justify a Men’s Affairs Ministry?

  6. mama says:

    #6,,,Downunder,,, to quote a phrase I have now heard many times to describe the need for a Ministry for guys is that ‘ the pendulum has swung too far the other way’.

    From my own experience the lack of respect and care for the humans that are male when dealing with both the criminal and family justice system, by the time the family court came to recognise that the father was up against an unbending and unscrupulous now adversary? (the mother) it had all gone too far.

    We are talking about our men having their very futures put in jeopardy, financially and in so many ways, all ways really.

    This punitive way of dealing with family disputes is one sided and given that there is little real answers and support for men before, during and after the fact, they are left with no where to turn. Even their friends will often turn away expecting he should just get on with life, they don’t have to ask the question, ‘how?’…no one really knows how bad it can feel when you have to deal with loss of a life you had, false allegations, ruination of your character on a public stage and all the other hellish possibilities for a man up against a woman and their child/children.

    There are a million reasons why now we need a voice for men at that public level.
    Something our fathers and mothers would have never thought necessary has now in my eyes become urgent as men continue to get mowed down by the system.
    Like we have all experienced and has been said here many times before, women are seen as the only victims and men are all too easily named the perp, even, EVEN, prior to proven.

  7. Downunder says:

    Thanks Mama,

    When I saw This Comment This morning it reminded of the enormous effort put in by Mark Shipman and James Nicol during the worst years of the child support fiasco.

    Both have said here how much it affected their health and lives trying to help people and campaign.

    Most of old campaigners now are just that. Old.

    So, we are loosing years of struggle and knowledge to thin air without a mechanism to keep up to date with multiple and rapid changes.

  8. mama says:

    We will always need HERO’s that is for sure, like this Mark Shipman,,
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0504/S00253/law-commission-on-paternity-testing-unacceptable.htm

    We are all not so young that our surnames do not say something about our ancestry past and Shipman is a great name.

    Rapid/rabad, changes indeed, being new to close scrutiny of a system, I was and am and have been blown away by the rapidity of some of the new law around family, womens’ rights, and even pulling business in to family troubles, I can understand business/employee awareness, health and safety has featured massively since the ’80’s but paid leave is another story.

  9. Evan Myers says:

    Part of the problem is that the job is huge, and those few capable and willing people have been spread thinly working on complex issues often with small numbers.

    Even though these organizations have a name there are usually only a few faces in behind.

  10. mama says:

    Evan Myers Above, this is true. That’s why it needs to be made more fun.

  11. Downunder says:

    Last century when the country was dotted with small men’s groups I recall one campaigner by the name of Bruce Cheriton from Mana Men in Wellington describing the battle as the matrix of family law.

    As that early campaign met resistance it pushed individuals into areas of expertise to fight legal and political battles.

    It’s never been fun, and probably for most it’s been a prison walking through the world along.

    I doubt it ever will be fun, because you’ve never experienced the hatred and bitterness of the venom spitting state bitches on the other side.

  12. Evan Myers says:

    Deadbeat Dads are the only ones getting a tax cut this year, according to the National Party.

  13. mama says:

    #12,Downunder, I was meaning the specks of enjoyment gained here or other platform, but that what is needed in building trustworthy unification, or camaraderie.

    ”’and thankyou, I have had a taste of ‘vssb’s’ on the other side, it is not what an observer wants to witness, it is the antipode .

    sorry to seemingly bitch off, building urgent friendships is difficult to do, and then spark has to fly, hard asks all round.

  14. mama says:

    ,,,,ONLY SIXTY SIX SIGNATURES….

  15. mama says:

    #13,,,why did the Nats say that?

  16. justcurious says:

    Kinda funny we are trying to eradicate discrimination
    And yet, here we are petitioning for another partition
    I thought an abolition was in order urgently to bring down the walls
    but it seems another iniquity is afoot and everyone got signed balls

    Ministry of women
    Ministry of children
    Ministry of genders
    Ministry of men

    are we not all human?

  17. Evan Myers says:

    #16

    Labour policy to allow mothers not to name the father.

    Means the IRD can’t take benefit recovery action action against the father which is claim of a civil debt not a tax cut.

    This is the primary claim so the father then pays tax on same money.

  18. Evan Myers says:

    @17 that is the problem with Feminist thinking.

    Women are human beings men are not.

    You can see that in the way someone like Clementine Ford talks.

  19. justcurious says:

    @19 I love it…
    Thanks for the reminder…
    Guess after the men ministry, then we can DEAL with all the fractions of men or women… that call themselves LGBT and whatever else……………………………………ADD YOUR OWN…………
    I guess they will want their own ministry also…

    The idea IS TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF LAWS my child, NOT ADD MORE INSANE LAWS…
    Get rid of the walls not add more laws
    rEMEMBER EACH TIME A LAW IS ADDED, MORE OF OUR HUMAN LIFE IS CODIFIED (LAWS?) AND USED AGAINST A SECTION OF THE POPULATION… UNITY NOT DIVISION…. MY BOY
    All the way Back to Human rights… Families…communities …life… love …harmony….

  20. Evan Myers says:

    Yes, you might describe the feminist journey as an attempt to form a code, and dehumanise the male.

    A ministry for men would never be accepted as essential or necessary as women would be deciding men’s issues.

  21. justcurious says:

    Mr Myers….
    The points you are missing are simply these:
    1~ The code is already here;
    2~ Dehumanizing of men is already the default policy;
    3~ It splits human in three categories:
    3.1~ Women are deemed irresponsible, incapacited and protected;
    3.2~ Children are deemed irresponsible, incapacitated and protected;
    3.3~ protection requires an “abuser”
    3.4~ All men are abusers.
    3.5~ All men are required to work (DPB is reserved to mothers), provide (child support) and support (deadbeats>) the above two categories of people.

    Do you address the above issues by creating another categorie?
    Or do you address it by showing the fallacy in the law and show how prejudicial, discriminatory, harmful to society and illegitimate it is?

    Your logic to me seems to be saying we must right a wrong by creating more wrong.

    Let’s say we create a ministry of men.
    Will we have hospitals for men only?
    Schools for men only?
    Jobs for men only?
    Support, guidance, counselling for men only?
    Laws for men only?

    If you do a search, you might find that I was one of the earlier proponent and supporter of a Men Ministry… Thank you for calling me a feminist btw… actually here is the link https://menz.org.nz/2018/ministry-for-boys-and-men/

    However only imbeciles never change their minds… we need to bring down the walls not raise more walls.

    Thank you for confirming that your myopic glasses are based on an emotional prescription.

  22. justcurious says:

    Definitions
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    Irresponsible: Not accountable
    Incapacitated: Requiring representation
    Protected: Shielded from responsibility and used to wage war on men.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sadly before the law all men are incapacitated. Hence the lawyers.
    He who is represented is deemed incapacitated…
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    And that is where the catch is – all are incapacitated before the law.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    So the solution is not to bring in more litigation
    Or create more walls, categories and classes.
    Only lawyers benefit…

    I know it is hard probably for you to understand Ewan Myers.
    But we cannot be chasing after symptoms and fighting over nonsensical illusions.
    The root causes of the problems are the laws being inadequate, illegitimate and unlawful.
    Asking for more stupid laws is simply laying our future generations neck on the chopping block .

  23. mama says:

    Dear Judge Curious….The use of laws and assumption of guilt can have a kinder, less punitive eye, if only by way of use of human right to begin with, the right to be treated with respect.

    It is not another wall or more litigation to have a select group treated less punitively than currently surely, these days it is common.

    It is an eye, an open eye, on watch for upholding of the rights of men where currently there is no eye,that is needed. I find it unbelievable and I wish it was not needed, but for now it is, the balance is out of whack. Men are being punished way beyond what is just, sometimes there is no justification if you take into account the punishment.

    I do not see the problem, it might be unexpected by some to be necessary but the fact is when your’e in it, you need all the help you can get.

  24. Boonie says:

    The code is already here?

    A code is complete within itself and does not require or use policy.

    History is littered with attempts at establishing a code and that is associated with a range of enforcement that can vary from subtle persuasion to brutality and violence.

    We see that within authority as a conflict with the population. That within our police is causing recruitment and retention issues. Likewise the subsequent behavior of children causes issues in education.

    We also see a new behavior within the new majority of women as they become aggressive and abusive towards men as a result of the attempts to establish a new code. That can only get worse if we continue in the same direction.

    Those examples in history are less common; Sparta being probably the most obvious. A dual monarchy, and I think it would be classified as constitutional monarcy, that existed as a neighbour to the polis of Athens.

    History records a similar aggression towards their men by women and a subsequent failure of their society.

  25. justcurious says:

    Hi mama

    “Dear Judge Curious….The use of laws and assumption of guilt can have a kinder, less punitive eye, if only by way of use of human right to begin with, the right to be treated with respect.”

    I agree Mama… I however believe the current laws are in breach of our human rights. Therefore the treatment that follows can only be inhumane… This was the main point I could not get Audi to grasp.

    “It is not another wall or more litigation to have a select group treated less punitively than currently surely, these days it is common.”

    It may not seem so but to make a change only three things can be done:
    ~create a new law or set of laws to address the iniquity; Or
    ~restore the balance by removing the current iniquity within the set of laws. (My preference)
    ~remove police powers to repress individuals based on suspicions rather than facts (this must be done at all cost since police has exclusive license to use force and thus violence.

    THERE IS MORE POLICE ABUSE THAN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE – Domestic violence laws empower the Police to be the biggest mercenary in the country.) And there is really no recourse except by going through the eye of the needle (a judge). And they are all employees of the court… Old boys school!

    “It is an eye, an open eye, on watch for upholding of the rights of men where currently there is no eye,that is needed. I find it unbelievable and I wish it was not needed, but for now it is, the balance is out of whack. Men are being punished way beyond what is just, sometimes there is no justification if you take into account the punishment.”

    Men are indeed being punished but the children are truly the victims of this punishment and society at large is being mutilated,crippled and maimed whilst the family unit, decimated… I therefore agree except that the problem is societal and should not be genderised… CURRENTLY IT IS and I believe therein lies the REAL PROBLEM.

    Would the solution be to accept that state of fact and fight for a custom and newly recognized and declared right we already have not to be abused and persecuted? OR

    Should the fight not be for equal rights and equal laws for all(remove the ministry of women) and possiblyremove the ministry for children?)

    Should we not seek to Empower the human right commission finally/or cull it and replace it with a citizen – non politically oriented panel publicly advising parliament and the rest of the population so that all laws are fair and equal for all and not in breach of our common human rights before they get passed in parliament?

    And should we not Revisit the Current laws and remove the discrimination within?

    “I do not see the problem, it might be unexpected by some to be necessary but the fact is when your’e in it, you need all the help you can get.”

    I have had cops conspire to defeat family court orders, asssault me, remove my child unlawfully in conspiracy with the Ministry of vulnerable children (OT/CYFS) and a year later, I still cannot see my child and the process they have started in court take precedence over any right I or my child not to be abused by the system.

    Family court said we cannot tell the cops what to do.
    Cops are not talking and looking for every way to find more charges to press just to cover their own asses.
    Judge in criminal court are wanking off with the litany ” the law does not allow me to consider anything beyond the charges before me.”

    The irony if any, or atrocity is that The mother of the child is a psychologist working for the Ministry.

    The same branch of the Ministry which surprisingly decided to mount an attack against family court orders (ignoring lawyer for child and child’s counselor and inflicting their own state abuse on my child….the abuse still continues).

    Funnily enough the Family Court has acted honourably here…even though they did not get it right for nine years…

    And when they finally did and the matter appealed and she lacked any recourses in the family court… the police and OT stepped in just to remove my child, put him back in the care of his abusive mother ( who is a recognized abuser and a child psychologist)

    And she still writes psychologist reports for the ministry… It it was not my life…I would rate it over games of throes… grab some popcorn and rest my feet in front of the best show on earth

    I am not speaking from wishful thinking and I know one thing, this is a commendable crusade and it may lead to the attention required to help some men… but sadly, I am not convinced it is the solution for society.

    Perhaps am being an idealist and I just cannot see

  26. justcurious says:

    Just to add to the litany…
    This was a case of international child abduction, parental alienation and too many instances of misleading authorities both nationally and internationally.

    The child abduction case is one of the most cited cases internationally and ironically has helped many children be re-united with their families. A go to case

    The parental alienation confirmed on appeal is the leading go to case in this country and is helping children finally be helped whereby they were to split into bits and pieces emotionally and psychologically due to parental alienation and never ending litigation.

    And of course the misleading of authorities is still unfolding…When he family court gets it right. FINALLY.. now the criminal courts have to get it wrong…

    WHY? because apparently, the current laws permit them to do so….

    I am sitting on my hill top simply reflecting/musing on the nonsensicality of life/men and their idiocy.

    I did say before in another post that women are the best teachers of men and got a lot of shit for that…

    but indeed it made me the best parent I could be and with all the knowledge of parenting in the most pernicious and counter productive environment ever for raising alienated children (parental alienation).

    For those idiots calling me a feminist… thank you… I support women… I have a mother, sisters and a daughter… a wonderful partner and she has daughters and a son…And my parenting continues… The problem is not women in general it is the political and legal climate using women in their agenda to divide the nation.

    But the choices people make are individual… and that distinction should and must be made.

    However my plight is for the NZ family … not gender based politics

  27. Downunder says:

    @justcurious

    I know you want to hold a belief in women in general but I’m sorry that just doesn’t work.

    I think your head was somewhere else back here https://menz.org.nz/2018/international-mens-day-nz/#comment-1217414

    The story linked to is about that but it skirts around naming the feminists involved.

    And this post https://menz.org.nz/2019/crusade-for-free-speech/ is about how bad it gets. What are men doing now. We’ll just do this then. There’s been strong objection to me calling our parliament the House of the Bitch, but thing is, I didn’t break it, they did.

    So, the idea of finding a normal solution doesn’t work here because of the way authority is used and abused and that won’t change until commonsense prevails or bullets fly. And those stories aren’t hard to find in any society’s past.

  28. mama says:

    #26,,,Just Curious,,,The children are being punished in turn, but firstly the Men, there would be no way of getting to start from scratch, removing current ministries, so equal rights is the area that is where hopefully change can come. Personally I would not trust our human rights here at the moment, I feel it is under the wing and self serving.

    I continually find it commendable that men here put the children first, you would think a Mother would do so right?..it just proves that many women who hide behind the law are selfish people, lacking in virtue and humanity.

    I hope you got some sleep.

  29. Downunder says:

    @29 Mama, I’m inclined to agree.

    Perhaps I can tell you a bit more about Ben Easton’s story.

    He was an earlychildhood teacher, that worked in the particular institution that had Sue Bradford’s among others children.

    In the time he was active he was doing as you suggest, looking at errors in Parliament and seeking redress through Human Rights. In many cases I accompanied him or was aware of what he was doing.

    He got nothing more than a view of how many designs of blockwork, (apologies to voices) corruption, lazyness, and dishonesty can have.

    Because that, although it should have been, was never supported by media, it remains largely unknown.

  30. justcurious says:

    Downunder Forgive me for my irreverence but your line below shows how emotionally broken you must be
    “I know you want to hold a belief in women in general but I’m sorry that just doesn’t work. ”
    I mean – wtf!!!!!! makes me think I have landed back at kindergarten.
    I know you are tying to be supportive and I thank you but I am not seeking support.
    Simply sharing my road so that those wishing to engage are aware before jumping in.
    Every one is in the business of selling false hope<
    And the remainder is trying to keep everyone at their level in the fear someone might succeed where they have failed…
    Your words remind me of a friend that said always dumb shit like that…
    In his world all women are C*, B* and cows… With good reason… he had married one of those…
    And she was such a bitch, a C* and cow that by the time she got done with him, his property and kids; he had reverted back to kindergarten speech
    "if you are my friend, you cannot play with the girls."
    He is now a happily married man to a good woman and he is one of the most dedicated man I know…
    I wish you a very good woman too… if so you are inclined.:-) and thanks for the words of support.

  31. justcurious says:

    @29 Mama… Case in point — baby blues
    You are right on all points… I can guarantee you that within a few years more women,, and children and even guys will come out and publicly say they wish they did not get the support they got given to destroy their own families. – IF EVER THEY FIND THE HONESTY REQUIRED
    The majority of these people have emotiono-psychological problems or pathologies requiring psycho-psychiatrical assistance and most of them are under some form of alcohol, drug influence, subject to depression and anxiety and having their mood regulated by pharmaceutical drugs. And most likely undergoing sustained denial and avoidance (Where best than behind a protection order/lawyer/victim status)… the system as it is simply empowers them in that role and prevents any form of personal growth or family reconciliation…

    Feels like I am hijacking another otherwise perfectly well intended drive…
    wishing you all well and may the best of the best in all goodness be your daily lot.
    And may Downunder find a good woman too help him with his hurt.

  32. Evan Myers says:

    @justcurious

    You want this to resolve itself on your terms and it won’t for the same reason you have your own personal battle.

  33. Downunder says:

    @31 No, I don’t forgive your irrelevance – you’re the one throwing your toys around the sandpit.

    Wife be happy, life be happy. If the woman is happy in her home, she has very little concern for the welfare of men other than those directly associated with her, if you’re lucky. Often these days, the female is guilty of elder abuse, or disregard for the wellbeing of their sons as opposed to daughters.

    Disrupt that happiness and the rules suddenly change. I now want the Feminist advantage that applies during separations.

    If you want to interpret what I said at kindergarten level, please yourself.

    I’ll say it again.

    ‘I know you want to hold a belief in women in general but I’m sorry that just doesn’t work.’

    That doesn’t mean I don’t respect individual women, especially those that rise above the ease of not having a social conscience.

    When I look at the circumstances of the young male, or father, their unfortunate plight today is a consequence of women in general, the collective female group thinking and advantage.

    That means as a society the preservation of the welfare of the young male is in the hands of men, absent men, both the father in the family and the fathers of society.

    A belief in women in general isn’t as Clementine Ford would have her audience believe going to make Feminists the saviour of society.

  34. Boonie says:

    … to quote a phrase I have now heard many times to describe the need for a Ministry for guys is that ‘ the pendulum has swung too far the other way’.

    I first heard this expression in relation to the Gender War back in the 1990s along with another example, “The social climate does not favour men’.

    That pendulum is certainly taking it’s time.

    Then it may still be on its way up … about to fly over the top and come crashing back down.

  35. mama says:

    As far as the Pendulum goes, the trouble has been more inclusivity, (under the wing), now the weight is too much, when and if it will ever swing again there will be much loose skin.

  36. Evan Myers says:

    And this

    David Farrar
    @dpfdpf
    ·
    1h
    I don’t think a Ministry is the answer or helpful. But there are a large number of areas when men are disadvantaged which I blogged on here (link: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/06/so_where_is_the_fuss_about_these_gender_inequalities.html) kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/06/so_whe…
    Quote Tweet

    Katie Bradford
    @katieabradford
    · 4h
    The New Conservatives Party has a new demand. That the Government establish a Ministry for Men. “The issues facing men have become ignored and balanced representation is long overdue, ” the party says.

  37. Evan Myers says:

    And the old Bill …

    Pat Pilcher replied

    Bill Bennett
    @billbennettnz
    ·
    1h
    Isn’t Destiny Church a Ministry for Men?
    Quote Tweet

    Katie Bradford
    @katieabradford
    · 4h
    The New Conservatives Party has a new demand. That the Government establish a Ministry for Men. “The issues facing men have become ignored and balanced representation is long overdue, ” the party says.

  38. Evan Myers says:

    NZBirder
    @NZBirder
    ·
    48m
    I’m not a supporter but Katie I feel it’s imperative we start appreciating and loving our beautiful NZ boys and our promising young men. It’s a disgrace nothing is being done at any level to help their self esteem and advance their needs.

    Our suicide rates are not acceptable

  39. MurrayBacon says:

    #39 It’s a disgrace nothing is being done at any level to help their self esteem and advance their needs.
    I don’t believe that men need much special support. But I do believe that men should get a Fair Go and not be taken stupidly for granted.
    Another wording for that, is that Government systems should respect men’s autonomy and integrity and not crush their spirit.
    Fair Go for all, starting with properly protecting children.

  40. Downunder says:

    @40

    I agree there. It’s a female voice in that tweet, of course, albeit a supportive one and it very nearly inspired a post on how I cringe when I see this ‘beautiful boy’ thing which appears to be coming from National Party supporters.

    If this suceeds, I wouldn’t expect to see a give us (the girls) more approach like we see with Woman’s Affairs – That’s as dangerous here now as it was in Rome.

    But rather as you say, to appreciate the needs of boys and male youth and see that these needs are actually being recognized so a course of action is available, and that we know, is not happening now.

  41. mama says:

    We know that statistics for young men have fallen in education, where others have soared.

    We need to recruit more teachers, to even up this sector, that would would mean a massive drive for male teachers and if they are to place strategic counselling services let they be men, to service the needs for boys through to men.
    Our guys in schools should be experiencing and encountering more of the Male perspective any way. These things will only get farther out of reach if men have no voice.

    Schools also should encouraged to be more Father friendly, with so many children from Fatherless households there must be becoming an usual factor to see Men at the school gate or involved in school activities and events, not to mention extra curricular.
    Instead schools work in with police, courts etc, and are actually painting a criminal picture of childrens’ Father’s.

    We have as a society WORRIED far too far that something nasty will happen if a Father has contact with our kids, our granddaughter had counselling that specifically warned her of ‘what she should do if unexpectedly she should see her Daddy’, at the time, yes, a protection order was in place for her mother, but it apparantly automatically applied to their daughter as well!!…It would take only a second for any normal folk to recognise the bond and love between them.
    The whole justice system approach has to put the FAMILY back in Family Court.

  42. justcurious says:

    @ 42 “Instead schools work in with police, courts etc, and are actually painting a criminal picture of childrens’ Father’s. ”
    https://www.education.govt.nz/assets/Documents/School/Traumatic-incidents-and-emergencies/MoE-STA-CYFProtocolForReportingActualOrSuspectedChildAbuseNov09Amendment-3-2015.pdf
    That is my experience exactly and that of many parents.
    The law favours the alienating parent…
    And the school must comply…

    Same with any agency that deals with our children
    Medical or otherwise… everyone must report.

  43. justcurious says:

    “WHEN Child abuse is either suspected or disclosed.
    Ensure the child or young person is safe from immediate harm.”

    A simple disclosure? No requirement of proof,
    no need for corroboration nor verification.
    “Immediate harm” – what a jump from suspicion?
    Isn’t it Creating a reality from a fiction/supposition?
    But in their logic
    it is a truth until proven false.

    That becomes a CYFS matter immediately.
    What ensues is normally is systematic child abuse
    From the hand of the authorities themselves
    at the taxpayers costs…

    IF anyone waits until the system comes crashing at your door.
    You will find that everyone has acted according to law.
    And To await another ministry and political parties
    …who kidnap the intent and purpose of men’s aim
    For their own political gain and do not condemn these laws
    is simply to blindfold oneself and walk the plank
    complaining that the sea is rough

  44. Boonie says:

    Look on the other side of the wall.

    A Minister for Women, although outside cabinet is still a member of the Executive Council tasked with advising the Governor-General.

    Although they rarely sit in cabinet they still report to a Minister within cabinet.

    In this Government we saw the additional position of an under-secretary on domestic violence reporting to the Minister of Justice.

    That is the political face alone, that does not disclose the growing deep state issues. We are used to that term in the context of American politics but it exists for us in a different form in education, policing, disproportionate funding … not to mention the application of human rights.

    How do you unravel that in a day?

    There’s a political position (in terms of an MMA) that may end up as nothing more than an election debate.

    I see a lot of complaining but not any alternative suggested.

    What do you suggest?

    We get radical and cancel the vote?

  45. mama says:

    A step forward, a foot in the door, or we could call it one small step, if one young man gained strength from the fact that he at least felt represented, that would be a start.

    Every one has their hand out and Men have not done this, they believe in reward via merit and hard work, inventiveness and honour, no wonder they disparage in this current and recent atmosphere.

  46. Evan Myers says:

    We certainly lack the contest of ideas in the political arena.

    I also think that Ministries have got to the point where they are controlling the Minister.

    Finally, yesterday Hipkins actually fronted up. It’s the collective strength of teachers that is pushing back against the state system that’s developed. I see the teacher’s action as much more than a strike but I don’t see the public understanding of that or teachers getting the recognition and support for doing exactly what is asked for here.

  47. mama says:

    If 40 odd years ago this is what a feministic movement was after, a position Men were backed into a position they would find impossibly difficult to rise from, that would make them very nasty indeed, as women were in their previous behind the eight ball position because of the natural order of things, they deny our very history, our own woman prime minister is here backing her campaigning whilst other leaders are overseas to thank the many Men who gave their lives in the war effort. I suppose they think war was unecessary???,,

    Evan, the inventiveness of guys needs to come back to the fore, political inventiveness, but we need to get Men accross the line.

  48. Boonie says:

    I don’t think our Prime Minister would have been particularly welcome but that aside the Governor-General is there and we shouldn’t be turning our participation into a petty political scrap.

    That’s hardly the occasion.

    What was happening in that time period is relevant to us today. The aggressor we have here today is the same enemy hiding behind the face of women. They have that experience to draw on but there is very little understanding of the event outside of known military events.

    It didn’t happen in the absence of law and politics.

  49. mama says:

    #49,, Boonie,,,You could tell us more,,,,we are now in a place where today is all important, what can I get from today, yesterday has nothing to offer, and although I am ignorant from lack of knowledge and learning of the past , I care very much that the world is now a bit screwy, if we have the same aggressor today, this is?…I guess your gunna say, where to start,,we are pretty screwed then,,start here? The Myth of Capitalism: Monopolies and the Death of Competition,,,,
    so the grab was on long ago and is done,,, now the peoples turn to grab,,,so where to next,, Men to join the party,, the grab that is.

  50. Downunder says:

    It’s not just a bit screwy, it’s a bit scary too.

    One thing that interests me, is the proximity of the development of radio and the part that played during and between the World Wars.

    If you look at social media as a similar major change in communication, what might happen in this case.

    Even having a basic understanding of yellow journalism and fake news and how it is affecting the individual as a participant or groups of individuals and particularly children is not on the minds of the majority of the population.

  51. JustCurious says:

    The main problem that most people do not see is that the system is fucked.
    It’s like a distant star which light we can still perceive but which has exploded millenias ago.
    Most people think the system is perfect and that only those committing wrong will be churned by it.
    So we comfortably put our blankets of emotional security on and watch men after men being stripped of their essences by the system thinking each and everyone of those poor souls deserve what came to them. No Support by fellow men. Until their day come. And it will.
    There is an abyss of understanding dividing those who have felt the bite of the system and those thinking not of it as they have not reached yet the demarcation line between the land and the sea of iniquity firmly anchored on land.
    A constructive discussion is near impossible between the population on each side of this great divide. So any attempt at consultation or collaboration is bound to fail between these two sectors of the population that have not had the same empirical experience and knowledge of the system (He ho feels it knows it.).
    However, if we engage in a process of reduction, we will find that once all the emotional constructs and emotiono-intellectual fallacies are removed that effectively the laws dictate the conduct of every single member of the system.
    Currently the overall constant is the laws are acted on and when they are acted on, they create injustice. And when one complaints, every single member of these authorities states we have acted according to law “even if all their actions are unjust, discriminatory and have created injury on the population.”
    So my point as I have always made it known is to focus on the laws themselves.
    I have told a bit of my story earlier to highlight the attitude of the family court:
    “We cannot tell the police what to do!” And yet the police breached a family court order!
    I have told of the attitude of the criminal courts:
    “my hands are tied, I can only accept your evidence if the prosecution agrees.”
    I forget to mention the attitude of the High court:
    “This matter is before the criminal courts and we cannot interfere.”
    The hgigh Court judge herself did not understand the law she acted on and the only way forward is what?
    Appeal… so more legal costs and more time rushing to sit on one’s hands…
    And that of the IPCA authorities:
    “The police officers have acted [within] their powers.”

    So the walls that divide us are “laws” and attitude from the enforcement agencies and the judiciary
    whom reserve the right to interpret these laws as they wish/chose or prefer…

    So what other solution can we propose?
    THe solutions are very simple…
    However we must stop reacting and start looking at a way forward.
    And this way forward does not require a men’s ministry or more representation
    but rather for men to take back their rights.

    One example is child support… Rivers of ink have flown.
    Child support is unlawful… If the state takes your child away, they must be liable for that child.
    However they do take that child away and charge you child support.

    Is that child’s material wealth or supposed insecurity more determinative/important than his mental balance, healthy attachments and overall development and right to continuity of contact with both parents?
    The answer is obvious.

    However the right of a child not to be abused by a parent opens the door for that child and one of his parents to be abused by the state.

    So as a must, we must all get together and decree that the government no longer has the right to charge child support and reclaim all our deductions… as they are all unlawful.

    Every man is worthy of his own hire but through the banks, a man has no say.

    He can oppose a de duction but his only given right is to contest it pending a decision he can only be subjected to.
    Once made, he can only complaint… and no one listens… why… because this is how it’s done.
    Ask anyone why? they say because it is the law or…what parent does not wish to support their kids?
    Or it is the duty of the parent to support his kid…
    When you tell them but I was doing exactly that until you stepped in…
    They reply now you can continue to do so but you will pay us and we will pay the mother…
    Tell them how about his emotional, psychological and mental health?
    So rry the law does not give us permission to address those (your ) issues..
    YOu tell them but your actions are creating harm on my child…
    they say even so, our hands are tied…

    Ask the men on this forums haw many of them have to pay child support for children they have no contact with?
    How many of these men only have limited contact with their kids because thE family court has decided that the mother should be allowed to remain on the dpb?
    SO MANY A CUSTODY ORDER IS NOT DEFINED BASED ON THe CHILD’S BEST INTEREST BUT RATHER ON THE MOTHER’S MATERIAL NEEDS.
    oR A CUSTODY ORDER DEFINED BY THE FACT THAT THE FATHER HAS A FULL TIME JOB AND THEREFORE CANNOT BE 100% AVAILABLE FOR THE KIDS. The mother is then given majority custody whislt the father relationship with the children is injured, his other relationships with new partner and step kids jeopardized emotionally and financially.

    I think rather than a Ministry of men… It is time for men in this country to say NO to CHILD SUPPORT…

    NO MORE INIQUITY…. The government must be liable and be made responsible.
    So a petition against child support might be the shortest and most effective way to address the problem of men.

    Any man paying child support and not permitted to raise his kids must not pay child support…
    Any man already paying for child support must be compensated for his loss in income if he choses to raise his kids fifty fifty and child support not deducted from him.
    Any dedution towards a child from a man’s salary must be reversed back into that man’s account.
    And no man shall be made to pay child support if the other parent is on the DPB and has majority care

  52. mama says:

    Man,, yes this is very scary,, children’s guidelines…hang on what guidelines,,, this is the worry,, and the world is making robots the now.
    Makes you feel the really poor countries are luckily missing out.

  53. Downunder says:

    @justcurious

    Quote

    So as a must, we must all get together and decree that the government no longer has the right to charge child support and reclaim all our deductions… as they are all unlawful.

    Unquote

    Here’s a bit of history:

    Tackling the Child Support Issue.
    Sunday 29th Oct 2006 – 10.00am to 3.00pm

    Guest Speaker Dr Viv Roberts.

    Remuera Bridge Club.
    273 Remuera Rd,
    Auckland.
    Entry $10.00 Donation.

    I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say.

    This happened back here. What the state was clinging to was a 4 billion dollar child support debt. As you can imagine they were prepared to ruthlessly defend that and they did. It was enough to make lawyers cry into their telephone when they were threatened, turn grey with shock when they were threatened.

    Some of us have seen this first hand.

    What interrupted this was a suicide in Australia through child support collections for New Zealand.

    The battle we were having with suicide secrecy.

    New legislation grinded it’s way through parliament. A new child support system was introduced.

    The older generation from the previous system have had to fight individual debt battles and some still are.

    What it is like for the current generation of paying parents, I have no idea.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if there were a large number of surpressed complaints but who owns that information?

    Where are those people?

  54. mama says:

    Where are those people????,,, crying alone in their pretzels, WORD OUT,, there has to be debate at top level,, when a guy gets an 800 dollar bill out of the blue because apparantly his previous employer wasn’t doing things correctly, who does he turn to, how easy is it to even get hold of someone from the department to talk to, what and take a day off to do so,,,besides its impossible to unravel, so our young Men not only have to understand lawyer speak, they have to be accountants to0!
    Someone needs to demand a look at Men’s money contribution and at the least respect could be given in return… wow what about a rebate for being a good steady paying Daddy,,, no ,,the only communication is a statement that gets burned furiously.

  55. Boonie says:

    This is, I would suggest still the major issue and I’ve copied this from the act;

    Mode of recovery of unpaid financial support

    All unpaid financial support and any unpaid penalty or other charge imposed thereon under this Act shall be recoverable by the Commissioner on behalf of the Crown by suit in the Commissioner’s official name and that money may, without prejudice to any mode of recovery, then be enforceable in the same manner as a judgment given by the District Court in civil proceedings.

  56. JustCurious says:

    #56 ~ Am I reading this upside down or is it saying?
    we will:
    1~treat our unsubstantiated Unpaid child support claim as true bills in commerce.
    2~legitimize our unsubstantied claim by our own authority and without sanction by the district courts to turn these unsubstantiated (unpaid) claims into money.
    3~and enforce recovery of that created money… by all means; as if it was a judgment from the district court (civil proceedings).

  57. Wahdan Arum Inawati says:

    what are the objectives of this petition?

  58. Downunder says:

    @57

    1. Based on the word of a woman, who signed a document, you are not allowed to see.,
    2. And penalties too, but by the same authority that established that court.
    3. Civil non-commercial proceedings.

  59. Frankly says:

    This post is about the incredible extent of methamphetamine use during WW2. I read the book ‘Blitzed’ about the meth use in WW2. The most shocking part is the extent of use and how the governments supplied the drug and got the people addicted. That was majority of all adults! During WW2, the RAF alone were producing one million hits per day!! Important questions are – who is ‘the government’ and why has mainstream media never reported this

  60. JustCurious says:

    @59
    Point 1: forget about the gender of the informant. that’s not relevant except to highlight there is gender discrepancy/discrepancy in how the law is formulated.
    Point 2: Thanks for that – so they create accounts as they wish, legitimize them and enforce them as if — but are they judgments?
    Point3:
    Is it not fraud?
    The legislation here is at fault… it acts as law but it is no law except for he who accepts it as law. And even then he who accepts it has defrauded him/herself of a certain right to demand evidence as to what this so called claim consists of and on what grounds it was raised and ultimately of the arbitration of the District Court civil for the issuance of a judgement before enforcement.

  61. JustCurious says:

    @60 — very good questions
    who is the government?
    Who is the Crown?

  62. Evan Myers says:

    @61

    Think of it in terms of the origins of the law in Rome.

    Citizens were not bankrupt but all others are.

    Commercial law is a subsequent law you are trying to relate to civil law.

  63. mama says:

    #Wahdan,, you asked what are the objectives of a Ministry for Men,,,

    I would like to think the many discrepancies brought up on this site would be the objects of discussion, recognition of Men not being given due respect within the family court system?, we can help educate the politicians, they have to be listening though, hence the Ministry for Guys.

    To establish once and for all that Equal Rights, should be just that, Equal, instead we have a schimozzle of some being more equal than others,, this of course BS, so much is not making sense.

    So, Common Sense, that wonderful thing, needs to prevail, that is Mans’ cue.

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