Parental Alienation Disease
What was your instant reaction when you saw that … a disease?
This is a proposal currently being given consideration by World Health. Previous posts on MENZ have debated child alienation from many angles but I don’t recall, disease. The process is probably following in the footsteps of addiction therapy which is mainly to do with funding, stigma, and recovery, even if it is not actually a disease.
These processes often arise out of larger target groups; for example drug addiction issues in the US armed services.
We’ve called it many things; a range of immorality, brainwashing, revenge and I recall at least one South American country making it a crime. You may also remember this 30,000 Euro fine mentioned in a previous post.
We’re not alone in this issue but I read in another recent article from Britain where there has been an increase in custodial fathers there has also been an increase in non custodial mothers being alienated from children in these court cases and while there is always anti-male haste to publish these things the article didn’t give any indication as to overall increases or decreases in the numbers of children affected – given the current proposal one assumes we are expecting an even bigger problem.
Following a link in a comment yesterday I see ‘someone’ has created an international objection letter that a large group of ‘NZ Experts’ have signed up to.
Like me you were probably not aware of how many experts we have on this issue, That list posted in another comment.
Following this through to the actual document sent to World Health there are links back to NZ Groups and documentation on alienation. It would appear that the current directions to Counsell for Child are based on a document from a women’s group who also arrange a support person to help your child deal with their lawyer … uh-ha.
After reading that I’m struggling to imagine that the Family Court is dealing any better with alienation
especially after this inflammatory article was posted about recently.
I’m getting the impression this new legislation of recent is being seen as a another grand opportunity to relaunch the war on fathers in this country.
By this stage though we now have an adult generation who have grown up with some degree of alienation during separation.
Parental alienation is a scale from temporary to severe.
In previous discussions it’s been clear that fathers at either end of this scale struggle to understand each other’s experience, why some get through it and others never get over it.
Comment by Downunder — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 12:04 pm
One of comments on the World Health article makes an interesting point.
There’s no signatures, no identity of the organizing source.
If groups were mounting a protest to protect existing funding they wouldn’t be in a hurry to provide anything that didn’t support their case.
Comment by Boonie — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 2:53 pm
It is a disease and a pathology.
A constant fight to cause dis-ease to a child whilst in his other parent environment
And a pathology since it is an erroneous belief that the child is the property of the alienating parent.
A pathology also because the alienating parent grieving mechanisms are not only immature (still in anal retentive mode) but are on suspended animation (through anxiety and mood regulants) whilst all the grief denied is being channeled through the child to address the hurt of the separation in a way that the child rejection of the other parent confirms all the animosity towards that parent.
No one ever gets through it. Least the child. It is the entire family unit needing help and without it, the system will empower the alienating parent against the targeted and usually better parent.
Lawyer for child are not equipped for it and if there is one clued up, a thousand more are littering the court rooms clueless and doing more damage than good.
Psychologist craft their reports to only give clinical indications of the dynamic and the patterns causing injury to the child’s identity, emotional safety and to his/her psychological welfare. They also give an appreciation of each parent’s input but fail short on usurping the judge’s responsibility to decide what is best for child.
Judges are often not equipped to interpret these reports and often prefer lawyers pointing them to relevant parts with a special ear for lawyer for child, having the final say. (his responsibility)
Courts involvement and litigation cause more harm than good if not diagnosed early.
And a family strategy put in place strongly barricaded behind no frill court orders.
however, often and by the time the courts see the light and see the case for what it is…
The child’s identity is so undermined – He/she will choose to align with the alienating parent…
than split into personalities in order to survive the emotional onslaught from the alienating parent.
Comment by JustCurious — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 2:57 pm
It’s an interesting shift in thinking, the pathology whether you see that as a disease or injury belongs to the child. That’s seems to be the significant problem they want to address by 2022.
If not the immorality or crime then perhaps the equitable judgement since it is a civil court is also lacking in intervention.
And then there is the addiction. All these people addicted to funding, the processes, addicted to a comfortable fallacy, or like we saw the other day, a confirming fiction.
These professionals are so addicted to that process like any other addiction they have a diminished capacity to think.
You can understand the comments in that article about this going epidemic.
Comment by Downunder — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 3:28 pm
Just saw my 24 year old daughter after 15 years or so.
She is wondering why I hardly saw her after she was 2. I told her I spent 17 nights in prison made up of 12 arrests. All because of trying to see her and her brother. All when I had court orders supposedly granting me access. She did not believe and called me a liar. I told her to let it go but she is insistent on learning about everything. I was never convicted once and in fact I do not even think I ever went through a hearing. My question is can I see my family court files after all these years? Can I get the police records showing the arrests? Can I ask her mother’s lawyers to hand over all his files? Can I see posts I have made on this website?
Thank you would be grateful for any help.
Comment by michaelqtodd — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 3:31 pm
#5 The FC is a civil tribunal.
This material is jointly owned by you and her. You can see your complete file on request but you might have a fight over some of the court ordered reports when it comes to copies.
I’ll leave JP to answer the best site access process.
Comment by Downunder — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 3:36 pm
I think that after
56 years, familycaught$ files are closed and sealed. I suspect that you might need an unusually good reason to get a file reopened.Maybe your daughter would have a better chance, than a father????
If you enter “michael todd” into the search pane at the top right, you might bring out some old comments?
Reconciliation is very important, in particular for future parenting…… It seems that many people don’t understand how important safe closure is.
Best wishes.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 3:48 pm
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Sorry 6 years.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 3:48 pm
After that closure, it is come back in 60 years or 100 years???, when they are opened for public inspection, no questions asked. Just hold off on the grandchildren?
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 3:51 pm
Thanks so much guys I will do my best with this. Files date back to 1996 and go to 2007. There were 15 box files and one day in 2007 I was shifting house and just threw them in a skip with a whole lot of other heavy and valueless stuff like mint LPS from the 60s and 70s (worth $1 each back then and $200 now haha.).
Is very probably a good thing if my daughter never reads this stuff. She feels she is unlucky not to have had a father and has been lucky to have had a great mother and step father. If she reads even one page she will quickly realise that her mother is a very long way from good and had as her agenda total eradication of me from the kids lives from day 1.
So is a double edge sword!
Comment by michaelqtodd — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 3:56 pm
As for parental alienation it really does not benefit anybody and there should be counselling about this.
Family caught lawyers and judges are supposed to act in best of child but then engage regularly in parental alienation. Surely this could be stopped if they were called out about it ore often by way of complaints
Comment by michaelqtodd — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 4:09 pm
That was a question I took to parliament 20 years ago and that’s when the fight started.
Comment by Downunder — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 4:26 pm
There are already diseases associated with Parental Alienation they are clear and present and recognisable to all,..in name, but not necessarily so recognisable in lives. These ‘diseases’ are much talked about but for the Male population not necessarily acted on or accepted as such, for Men the help is not so readily available or readily accepted or even perhaps not sought out. The Alienation is as it sounds, lonely and out of your control.
It is not a disease but a symptom of a sickness within the system, or you could just call it a massive lack of human respect on the part of the system.
Comment by mama — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 4:39 pm
Isn’t this the circular argument: that if you didn’t have the system wouldn’t you then need to adhere to moral obligations?
Comment by Downunder — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 4:46 pm
The fact that children are alienated from their Dads is definitely not in their best interests, so who is pleasing/appeasing who?…
It seems upside down even to call such a system the ‘FAMILY” court, do we all have a lawyer intimately living alongside our families do we?, if not, why the hell are they invited.
Comment by mama — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 4:49 pm
#14,,a moral system would be good, yes.
Comment by mama — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 4:51 pm
In those extremes, Mama should the women be disrespected for her insanity or sued into poverty and left to die in the gutter – along the same lines deadbeat dads are sued for child support?
Comment by Boonie — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 5:06 pm
…and if the alienation comes from this personality type…..
So how does narcissistic parenting affect children?
The child won’t feel heard or seen.
The child’s feelings and reality will not be acknowledged.
The child will be treated like an accessory to the parent, rather than a person.
The child will be more valued for what they do (usually for the parent) than for who they are as a person.
The child will not learn to identify or trust their own feelings and will grow up with crippling self-doubt.
The child will be taught that how they look is more important than how they feel.
The child will be fearful of being real, and will instead be taught that image is more important than authenticity.
The child will be taught to keep secrets to protect the parent and the family.
The child will not be encouraged to develop their own sense of self.
The child will feel emotionally empty and not nurtured.
The child will learn not to trust others.
The child will feel used and manipulated.
The child will be there for the parent, rather than the other way around, as it should be.
The child’s emotional development will be stunted.
The child will feel criticized and judged, rather than accepted and loved.
The child will grow frustrated trying to seek love, approval, and attention to no avail.
The child will grow up feeling “not good enough.”
The child will not have a role model for healthy emotional connections.
The child will not learn appropriate boundaries for relationships.
The child will not learn healthy self-care, but instead will be at risk of becoming co-dependent (taking care of others to the exclusion of taking care of self).
The child will have difficulty with the necessary individuation from the parent as he or she grows older.
The child will be taught to seek external validation versus internal validation.
The child will get a mixed and crazy-making message of “do well to make me proud as an extension of the parent, but don’t do too well and outshine me.”
The child, if outshining the parent, may experience jealousy from the parent.
The child is not taught to give credit to self when deserved.
The child will ultimately suffer from some level of post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and/or anxiety in adulthood.
The child will grow up believing he or she is unworthy and unlovable, because if my parent can’t love me, who will?
The child is often shamed and humiliated by a narcissistic parent and will grow up with poor self-esteem.
The child often will become either a high achiever or a self-saboteur, or both.
The child will need trauma recovery and will have to re-parent themselves in adulthood.
…this is why mediation specialists are needed in the beginning of separation, even in looking at involvement with DV, it is worth the initial investigation so as not to cause unnecessary court involvement and lifetimes of hurt…the costs for everyone will be much smaller.
Comment by mama — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 5:14 pm
# 17,,, insanity at losing grip might be a problem,, but shared custody should always be desired.
Comment by mama — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 5:18 pm
If our Mothers were insane we would still want to be able comfort them.
Comment by mama — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 5:20 pm
#5 Sorry, my info is many years out of date. There are now tighter rules on access.
See familycaught$ rULES:
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2002/0261/latest/DLM142995.html?search=ts_act%40bill%40regulation%40deemedreg_family+court+rules_resel_25_a&p=1#DLM147595
So many things are covered in the rules. Even in my limited experience of the familycaught$, I could see many things controlled by the rULES which had been breached. I guess the rULES is to be seen as a list of “smart” ideas, for slippery, unethical people to use. But which can also be thrown against a litigant who displeases in any way. Alice in Wonderland stuff.
The “Access after 60 years” clause has been revoked. It isn’t clear to me whether the situation reverts to access under the Public Records Act, or access isn’t possible except at the order of a judge. I guess it wouldn’t be the original judge anyway? They will all be in flames.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 21st July 2019 @ 7:41 pm
sensible inputs every one… Michael-Todd, my heart goes to you…
By the time we see our kids again, they have become the alienating parent.
Trying to build a relationship on those grounds is often a long process of realizing our kids do not know what a dad is and confuse him with a wallet.
And when you do get them back early enough in their lives to be able to regain a positive influence on the child, you will find that the child identity is already too compromised.
By then damage control is the only recourse… One must abandon ideals and fight only on principles.
The child by then is likely to be more mamipulative than the alienating parent.
There is another post or thread or topic on this site where one is accused of sacrificing the fight for his own kids… However when you do get your kids back, you will realize it is a 24/7 job just to get them back to resettle within themselves. Charity well ordained begins at home.
Those whom are trying to assist their child back into reclaiming their spirit self have no other time but study child development and the path of least resistance. and eventually become much better people, more empathetic and more caring in general outside of the materialistic vision of liove, family unit and intimate relationships.
However many parents themselves become alienated from reality through the process.
Part of the destabilizing efects of parental alienation is that one is judged constantly by strangers who rely on affidavits to decide you are worth your salt as a parent.
Anther part is the social aspects of parental alienation whereby a parent is ostracized from every center of activity of that child.
People conspire against you to protect your child from you when none of them know you or has any idea what it is like for that child to see his good parent treated with such an injustice.
Targetted parent develops suspicion, become anxious, depressed, feels targetted, misunderstood, help less, abused socially and legally and has only two recourses really.
First is moving away to rebuild one’s sanity and life o
And second, like many, is to commit suicide with the belief that they are the problem and after having been so thoroughly humiliated their shame cannot recover on another rejection.
There are however other parents who throughout this exercice grow to develop empathy, faith, resillience and an emotional and psychological strength and prowess, unabling them to free themselves from any ego and have learnt that any form of control is an illusion.
Participation is key.
Comment by JustCurious — Mon 22nd July 2019 @ 9:10 am
For those of you saying shared care is good… I disagree;
Solomon task was to judge between two women.
One wanted the new born child split in half with a sword
whilst the other was willing for the false mother to have the child than to split that child in half.
Shared care during parental alienation is like splitting that child in half
That is why when they get to teens, their only coping mechanism left is either to join the alienating parent or psychologically split to handle the psychological warfare.
Comment by JustCurious — Mon 22nd July 2019 @ 10:22 am
#11
Was alienation an issue discussed at the recent youth parliament?
I doubt it – I heard they were too busy declaring a climate emergency.
Of course – if the issue is shut down and not discussed they would know nothing about it.
Be interesting to see if it is a political question in our next election given what can be seen through the post.
Comment by Evan Myers — Mon 22nd July 2019 @ 1:15 pm
@21 I think this rules thing is persuasive negligence.
If there is a formal record the courts are oblidged to keep that.
If there is an informal record we should expect the courts to store that, not just for some future historical record but for any time the parties need that.
Not when it suits the state.
Comment by Boonie — Mon 22nd July 2019 @ 6:51 pm
Seriously great posts everybody thank you.
Really there is a great book to be written from all of this. I am feeling quite inspired to bang one out.
The issue is of course, as Mama has pointed out in her list, that young women need to learn to trust and respect males. My daughter told e yesterday she has no trust in me. It turns out that she was poisoned and manipulated far far more than I ever thought possible.
And for why? What was the agenda of the mother and the step father and uncle and grandfather? How did they possibly think that this might be in her best interests?
They simply saw it as fun and as sport. Like Donald Trump avoiding paying taxes they wanted to see what they could get away with. And now y daughter reports that both she and her brother feel “irreparably damaged” and that I have “destroyed their lives” by abandoning them. When I told her that I had been imprisoned 12 times yet never convicted she called me a liar. I told her that it was pretty easy to show her my police record so she then said well I should not have breached my protection order.
The protection order was made for no reason and was made final when my daughter was 2. It lasted till she left high school I think. So for 16 years I was banned by the government from contacting her. I could not even seek to have that decision reviewed there is no process for it. I am a super peaceful relaxed person I never did anything wrong. Back in 1997 they dished out final protection orders like parking tickets.
Darn I am going to write a book.
I actually thought all along that by the time y kids reached their 20s they would have seen through all of this and it would all come back to haunt their mother but she and her family have really done a job on them.
I handed over every cent of our matrimonial property as well. We had a big house and 5 rental properties. Then one day about 18 years ago I was hailed before the dreaded Mark Miller and was told the law had changed and that you could no longer contract out of the Child Support Act and that it was retrospective so my actions in handing over everything 4 years earlier were irrelevant. He told me that because I was a trained lawyer he would assess me on my potential earnings for a person of my age whether I was working or not. He even told me that I had been a fool for making an agreement 4 years earlier giving everything to the other. I actually applied for a Judicial Review of his decision but he simply made it again the following year so I ended up leaving New Zealand and have not been back much. Whenever I do I usually get arrested and detained.
Look forward to my book! Here is a snippet I wrote yesterday to warm your appetites.
Working Title will be “How to successfully destroy your (client’s) child’s life by alienating them from their father”.
Hopefully it will become required reading at law school.
I have zero fear of naming people as I only speak truth. My story is pretty good. The mother’s lawyer was Hugh Hamilton. He eventually went to prison for defrauding pensioners in Hawkes Bay. I warned the Law Society about him several times but nobody listened.
Have a read!
I have by far the most connections on Linked In of any New Zealander. I can make some noise about this if I want.
Darn this site will not let me post the link. You need to put docs dot google dot com in front of these numbers document/d/1_d9g2XRieJ2oiSDgLGkvEt6PG3FGCYDVQWfg9xr1CCA/edit
Comment by Michael Todd — Mon 22nd July 2019 @ 7:03 pm
Ho, ho said the modern supermarket – we can remove disease by excluding single use plastic bags excluding condoms. Good idea said the Minister. The SUPERMARKETS can provide a box! The public (as Furor’d). supposed, murmured – what if instant then becomes the crime? The English were staid. The Chinese were happy. Yet, the Japanese who once held the money wanted the UN to rectify economy. Oil’s best commodity is to learn to control the DNA of rust.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Mon 22nd July 2019 @ 7:06 pm
If you give wealth to those disaffected you provide new knowledge – and if furnished without care that / new knowledge (known), is particularly ugly – or otherwise it the machinated question – not mine. I figure truth is better than deceit.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Mon 22nd July 2019 @ 7:34 pm
The question then – (memory for CJ): Is do children need their fathers? (And CJ answers You stupid fucking idiot to the question) stand up and fight you oo eer – men.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 4:21 am
Main stream to base… (how can we process this information?) On behalf of CJ to the (resting) world – rely on humanity and not otherwise a straw. That means stop being fat and lazy.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 4:28 am
#23
In the context of history Solomon as a Judge was the highest authority and known for his inclination to solve problems with a sword.
Orange Tamariki or a psychologist could just as easily place a modern interpretation on that literature.
It’s also quite obviously about two women not about fathers.
Good input everyone but here’s the sword?
Comment by Evan Myers — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 8:16 am
Benjamin write your book,,I know my Son is writing a book, I am not sure of its contents, but I am sure he is writing it for himself and for his daughter whom he hopes to see again some day.
Our Maori counterparts may yet be successful in attaining a system that it suitable to their specific needs, I live in fear that they will have left to us a system that was not fashioned for the others of this land either, we should not accept being left this system and could indeed take a leaf out of their book and use their push for difference as case in point.
We have Men being dragged into a system just because that is the way a partner ‘will have it damn it’, they see it as a system backed way out of a relationship they just want to kick down the road, if this is callous then so the system that backs her.
Comment by mama — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 9:38 am
I have to say that I am thrilled that this forum has survived. On many “down” days during the past 15 years it has been comforting and reassuring to come here and see that others were in the same boat and it was not my fault that my kids were suffering so badly.
I always knew I was in the right but reassurance was good. For 6 years we had a counsel for the child guy. on 4 or 5 occasions when access was disrupted or names were changed at school illegally he had to get involved and on 4 or 5 times the mother was ordered to contribute to his fees. This never happened to me.
I hope that somehow my nightmare might be a guide or lesson to future generations on how things should not be done.
Comment by Michael Todd — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 9:47 am
Books are good, but of course, I’m biased in that respect.
Not just one, 10,000, maybe more.
If you are going to write a book then I suggest you do it the old fashion way with hand-written pages, numbered, loose-leaf pages in a folder …
… or you may end up the victim of a crime, where the only thing taken is some specific technology.
“This is all very odd, isn’t it?” Said one of the investigating constables.
What can you do but smile and carry on.
Comment by Downunder — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 9:52 am
I apologise Micheal, I meant Micheal write your book!,if even for yourself,,a good old fashioned typewriter would also be great, if you still have one.
I love the sound of the typewriter, although my nemesis subject at school.
Comment by mama — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 10:00 am
Guys are often, perhaps even seldom, good at putting pen to paper.
There are other options such as using a ghost writer to help tell your story. While that can be expensive an easier way is to talk to a recording device and have that transcribed onto pages by a typist.
It’s also good to have someone else read what you’ve written to see if they get the right impression from what you have said, or the way you have said it.
Comment by Downunder — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 10:11 am
#26 That’s one of the most relevant comments I’ve seen.
That the site doesn’t just exist for online arguments, that there is somewhere on a down day or a dark night that is there.
Especially for fathers and deadbeat dads that have had their lives destroyed far beyond what’s visible from the family court.
Comment by Boonie — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 10:33 am
Correction there. I meant #33.
Comment by Boonie — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 10:48 am
Thank you for the mistake Mama. There is a coincidence ot two Downunder. Having this page to support folk caught in the Family Caught as Murray would say, is agreed to be an absolute if anyone ought present that. The suffering for loss of ones’ association with one’s most human to love being the child or children born from your history and of your identity is the most extreme. To have an absolute stranger dictate the purpose of that loss and enforce it with a system designed to be cruel in necessity to retain its authority double the burden.
Downunder has it right the book is being written. Yet I reject the notion that those who are veteran in the movement have any less credibility for past activity nor can be challenged to have contributed to the loss without success – because to say there has been no success would be incorrect. What the observer would have to do to recognise the success is to step away from the authority and identify the cheat. That means to take one step further than the author has done where in the days when I would write on this page the title would have been PA Syndrome. To derail the word syndrome and install a replacement of disease is possibly the right direction – yet that would imply the folk contributing are sick and can get better.
What the “book” is doing and has been evolving over 18 years now is establishing that the activity of parent alienation is criminal. The papers are about to be served – Downunder where the police are jolly – don’t speak too loud where words are stolen and used to describe and qualify some other as alternate purpose!
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 3:31 pm
… yet that would imply the folk contributing are sick and can get better.
No it wouldn’t. The way I read this post is that it is catching up with the effects on children not condemning the experience of long suffering fathers.
Comment by Evan Myers — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 3:46 pm
#39 Theft of your intellectual property?
I have to be equally blunt.
Why weren’t you the author of the next post and not me.
To be honest, Ben, I don’t regard your opinion as something worth owning.
Comment by Downunder — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 4:14 pm
So if PA were to be said to be a disease what would be the supposed cure?
Comment by mama — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 5:42 pm
#33 – nice –
#37- Thanks confirms 33 and a good reminder to keep in good light
#31 – “In the context of history Solomon as a Judge was the highest authority and known for his inclination to solve problems with a sword. ”
It seems you cannot suffer any bit of wisdom unless it comes from a book you have misread.
In fact King Solomon equates with Wisdom… Confusing him with Caesar or calligula only distracts us.
#31 – “Orange Tamariki or a psychologist could just as easily place a modern interpretation on that literature.”
The modernity here is that “splitting the child” is already the leitmotiv.
#31 – “It’s also quite obviously about two women not about fathers.”
It’s also quite obvious you missed the point of that entire short story.
You need to study your history.
You could look at it in many ways…
ONe woman woke to find her child suffocated under her breast
and bereft, immediately sought a replacement.
This is symptomatic of the alienating parent syndrome. Refusal to grief.
Another woman woke to find her child stolen from within her bed.
And found her child bereft tackled to the breast of a foul woman.
Her claim to that child led them to King Solomon who offered to split that child in half.
One said, “Ok,I am happy to have half if that is all I am going to get.”
Whilst the other said “Keep him whole and give him to her… I would rather have him alive.”
That is symptomatic of the good woman, child focus to her very death.
The story goes that that was the first case of parental alienation ever reported to media attention.
Comment by JustCurious — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 6:49 pm
#42 –
There are no cures. (I believe…)
Failure to grief is the problem.
Without grief it is arrested emotional development.
The entire world of the alienating parent is black and white.
No moral or empathy, no self love or compassion, no pity nor compromise
It’s a world that only wants to remain … numb… it’s a vacant lot.
Filled to the brim with repression, self hate and loathing and prejudice and anxiety.
And yet all this beneath a veneer of self assurance, social climbing, professional ambitions
Achieved only through a steady campaign of emotional and psychological manipulation.
In fact they are contagious
Instead of processing their own grief, they program others to do it for them…
However knowing all the above there is a cure but one that requires the alienating parent to enable healthy grieving in her/his system…
And certainly without honesty, there is no grief… Without grief, no growth
So it would be akin to trying to teach a child to stop manipulating his parents
When this has been his modus operandi his entire life.
Comment by JustCurious — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 7:08 pm
so, like Down under states, the bevy of proof in the form of grown adults from children having been alienated must be there to see the problem exists and they are questioning what box to put it in,,, obviously to call it a new disease would cause much worry among professionals who have been sidelining the issue for ever, not to mention the highlighting of the alienation of the ‘other’ parent.
It for sure is a syndrome not a disease, but for the cause it would be beneficial for it to be called so…it is treacherous to put more band aid counselling consolation on it, most likely refused and fall on deaf ears because they have removed themselves from this life.
Comment by mama — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 7:38 pm
It’s been going on at an alarming rates since the 50’s.
It has just, in the last 30 years, become a mass epidemic with globalization.
As history shows, (Solo Moms vs king solomon – the wise judge 🙂 it has always been present but society had buffers…
Now that all the natural family buffers have been rescinded and replaced with litigation, the judiciary still is following a norm that is of another world.
“It for sure is a syndrome not a disease, but for the cause it would be beneficial for it to be called so…it is treacherous to put more band aid counselling consolation on it, most likely refused and fall on deaf ears because they have removed themselves from this life.”
They have removed themselves out of a conscious life but the damage they cause is their drug
as it echoes their own existence… Without it, the darkness they hide themselves in would blind them…
Just like the courts, they keep advertising their interloping and continuously bombard the world with their solicitation just to validate their existence.
You can see how they are naturally birds of the same feathers.
Throughout it all though, there is still a child waiting desesperately to be brought to account and saved and looking out for it… in fear and anxiety of their own liberation…from their own self.
You cannot heal the child without assisting the mother or the alienating parent in healing
But there will never be a progress in this situation unless the judiciary is willing to prosecute false statements and the misleading of the authorities
Comment by JustCurious — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 7:55 pm
That is the thing though, family do not belong in the adversarial ring that is the current system.
We need theraputics not litigation.
Comment by mama — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 9:19 pm
Massive failings come from not nipping in the bud,,, not to take into account the whole history and nothing but the history of that familys’ life so as to expose the truths so as to move forward in a good direction is abandonment 101 of the truth, otherwise why should any one defender swear on any bible, what relevance does that have in cases like these.
for extreme cases completely or partially false in claim to win over bonds of family is disgusting in the eyes of truth and virtue. How can something so complicated as years long court cases be considered the easier, safer option…
Comment by mama — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 9:31 pm
#47- therapy is undoubted-finitely the way to go – unsure yet of the association with court…
Its a set of personality disorders best designed to hide behind legal interference to manifest in it’s most seditious form.
#48 – SAFER ONLY | AS A POLICY OF LEAST EXPOSURE TO LIABILITIES.
what i have seen reveals a system willing to act but forever in denial of responsibility.
The essential problem is form over substance… authority without accountability… responsibility without liability… and Due diligence only applies to ticking boxes… Forms rules…common sense has been abolished… I am sure there is mmeo somewhere… over the rainbow
I agree overall the living does not belong in courts…
They know it too so they send you a summon, just to test if you are alive.
Who gets summoned but the dead to rise from their graves?
Comment by JustCurious — Tue 23rd July 2019 @ 11:09 pm
”
It seems you cannot suffer any bit of wisdom unless it comes from a book you have misread.
In fact King Solomon equates with Wisdom… Confusing him with Caesar or calligula only distracts us.
”
If you’re going to try and teach Sunday School to support your cause at least get the story right.
Two mothers and two infants in the same house.
One gets smothered.
Whether the story is true or representative makes it available to different interpretations but regardless the JUDGEMENT was that the child be cut in half with a sword.
One woman did not appeal the judgment on the basis that if she couldn’t have the child then neither would.
The other woman begged for the child’s life and relinquished her claim to the child.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 7:23 am
That is funny. Where did the theft come from? What matters is that it is not opinion that I am going on about – and have been going on about since the beginning. It is fact and law. Those two doctrines are the pillars of the democratic as judicial system.
Fact has been removed. The law has been manipulated as the balancing quality.
It is that that observation is not accepted. Then the rest becomes participant – a marketplace for opinion.
So let’s try fact. If you read s3 of the DVA – and then interpretation of violence – it says when you include the HRA not discriminating against women in pregnancy and childbirth that the mother – in observation of the child is permitted as incentivised to lie. In my case of alleged DVA breach of a protection order the prosecutor told the judge he had difficulty that the chief witness admitted (fact) to telling lies. The judge instead (opinion), instructed the jury to measure me by how I presented. The appeal Court omitted this submission from judgment on appeal. That is the Family Caught. The judges are given right to manipulate the law in order to protect the mother – hence the capacity of alienation increases multiple. The megaphone should be about what the interpretation of DV does to incentivise alienation. It is not a syndrome. It is not a disease it is criminal. A court through history is the vehicle for justice not somewhere you go to apply for an opinion. Children as rightfully put first require social remedies from the beginning all the way through to the end.
Now to put the spanner into the works going off topic – albeit mama raised a brief reference earlier. Hobson stood as self appointed on 14 January 1840. The only entitlement the NZ Queen had to power was as appointed on Te Tii Marae, 28 October, 1839 at the latest. Didn’t happen. That means the treaty is worthless in law. No reader can escape that fact no matter that every reader is as guilty as each-other pretending that family law in this country has a right to carve its way through the lived of the citizenship. That fact is now raised and the conundrum remedied this year on Te Tii marae – either by the NZ Queen which seems spectacularly unlikely or by me.
As inferred earlier – men need to stand up. Today the country is debating the law commission’s take on the modern world making the pain deeper for the children concentrating as seems to be perpetuated on the greed of the adult/s.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 9:32 am
If you look at the Theraputic court system you see forgiveness in the form of a way forward, currently this court is servicing the yesterday said to be recidivous offenders of various crime.
If we can create this kind of system for some of our offenders why can we not do the same for the family.
That King Solomon quote points out the fact that no one owns the life of a child or at least should not, nothing good comes from ‘ownership’ of another human…you can however have ownership of the heart as every alienated person would know, if given the opportunity.
Comment by mama — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 9:44 am
Following is from the Children’s Act….
They here use the words ‘Family Lawyer’, there is no such thing, if there were it would, you think, be their job to guide you through the process in a moving forward for the better of the family, therefore the better for the children.
Show me the FAMILY lawyers!!!!
Legal help & advice
You can get a family lawyer’s advice at any time but you need to do some things yourself in the early parts of some court processes.
Find out more about when you can use lawyers in the Family Court
Back to top
If it’s urgent
If there is domestic violence or you believe your children are at risk, you can apply to the court for an urgent (without notice) decision. The court can make an Interim Order while you sort out longer-term arrangements.
If you think you need urgent help, it is best to see a lawyer about making an urgent application for you.
Comment by mama — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 9:59 am
Benjamin, but they are making those Acts even blurrier and more up for interpretation, we must “megaphone’ in the mean time our young men so as not to fall in ti the interpretation trap.
Men simply must get vocal, must be seen in the light of their day.
Youth Education around such nasty traps must be a subject for all Men’s groups, this is where a Men’s Ministry could and would work, to voice such worries for Men and bring to the public fore a better way and install respect again for Men.
It is bad enough that Men are caught up in the whirlwind of progressive mash that we currently have.
It is all Bullshit, Men are still the everything, as you will always have the hard jobs that no body else wants, so ultimately you still call the shots. Women will never want to fix the infrastructure, they will always opt for the heater in the office, so they expect the office will always survive?.. and there in lies the difference, the expectation. you can not live on expectation, you would surely be hollow.
Comment by mama — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 10:17 am
#50 Off topic – but fun to digress at times – your information is wrong.
The judgement was that the child was given to the rightful mother AFTER
the PROPOSITION by King Solomon to split child in half was well received by one.
You however confuse a proposition with a judgement
you seem to like dwelling on the form, only
“Form over substance” is
“how the story is told” taking precedence
o”ver the moral of the (his)story.”
This is acute.tally rather important because stories such as this one…
and even if you want to call it parable ( and deviate from history)
are those essential basic moral lessons children are no longer exposed to…
hence the state of moral bankruptcy the entire world seems engulfed into.
WE have disconnected from the wisdom of the past and from our collective consciousness.
Instead children of our generation now were told about prince charming (Power disguised in seduction) and damzels in distress and knights in shining armour and paupers and kings and step moms from hell and bla bla bla bla a generation of romantics…
I do not blame you though. Every individual is the product of his/her environment.
WE have recreated those fairy tales in our psyche and are now living them, waiting to exhale.
Prince charminng is now the judge or the rich man gold diggers drag before the judge after slitting their golden veins…
Knights in shining armours are now the seedy lawyers promising you a palace over the rainbow just to drag you into the next brothel to sell you and your history for a cup of wine…
Won’t talk of cops… it seems the corrupt role of the officer has not changed through history…
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 11:03 am
I don’t see too much relevance in the Solomon story. It’s before the separation of powers, so the decision is representative of both Parliament and the Judiciary.
While the discussion revolves around past and present situations I haven’t seen what might have been distributed by World Health in terms of what they are considering.
In that respect the first clarification might be whether they are approaching this from the dis-ease point of view or whether they are talking about the biological view as an abnormal state of the body.
That I imagine would quickly get the response it did from ‘our experts’.
There’s no doubt that the issue creates an eternity for those people involved, regardless of how it has been dealt with or not dealt with up to now.
Comment by Downunder — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 11:30 am
#55
If the original story is correct and the two mothers were mother in law and daughter in law and we’re both widows who were subject to the marriage laws of those that places the story in time period.
Then the version you are relating to was created in another time and place and more likely a reflection of the Roman Empire.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 11:49 am
*different time period
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 11:50 am
#52 I’m not sure ownership is the main issue in these cases.
I think there’s a large element of expectation and when the mother doesn’t get what she wants she turns the child into the judge.
It would interesting to know if other people felt they were dealing with two separate authorities – one backed by the justice department and one backed by the parliament and the state.
Comment by Boonie — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 3:17 pm
#53
Do couples even have the same lawyer these days. I imagine some of the agreements are quite complex.
Is a family lawyer something from our past?
Comment by Boonie — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 3:21 pm
@56, “”I don’t see too much relevance in the Solomon story….”
the first ever reported case of parental alienation!!!
and you cannot see much relevance?
Why bother posting about parental alienation then?
This is a shining example of an Inquisitory process in its most wise form
( a propositon followed by an immediate mea culpa by the guilty party)…
IMMEDIATE= IMMEDIATE+IMMEDIATE+IMMEDIATE+IMMEDIATE REMEDY for the child
AND NO LAWYERS and no CHILD INVOLVED.
The therapeutic court Mama speaks about perhaps???
(family only and no child involved)
“I don’t see too much relevance in the Solomon story.
It’s before the separation of powers, so the decision
is representative of both Parliament and the Judiciary. ”
This is where you miss the point entirely.
That separation is an illusion
Judges have to make decisions and judges are responsible and accountable for their decisions!!!!
Whether the law is right or wrong.
Ask the Nazis soldiers who shot/gased the jews on order.
Did they or did they not engage their personal responsabiity?
Are we not in the same situation? Are men not the jews of today?
Or should we ignore the obvious and would you like us to limit it to your initial inquiry only?
“In that respect the first clarification might be whether they are approaching this from the dis-ease point of view or whether they are talking about the biological view as an abnormal state of the body. “
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 4:07 pm
#57 – Ewan – just accept you do not know your history nor are you able to draw any moral or even judicial insight from this story… but that is ok… You are a great man.
#59 – that might be the crux – elevating the child to sit in judgement of the prosecuted parent.
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 4:13 pm
#61 I was curious about this discussion so I searched online to see what anyone else would see, and I found the Jewish version of that story about two widows.
That unfortunately doesn’t support your claim of parental alienation. That story reads more like a murder to escape forced marriage.
Comment by Boonie — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 4:18 pm
Thanks Boonie… I have not bothered checking any site for this matter as this story has been with me as long as I can recall. Part of a compendium of moral or even earliest jurisprudence story that is still shared in some cultures. I thought the point made within the story was obvious and make it relevant to today’s dynamics but it seems not as it is drawing controversy and detracting from the focus whereby in my mind, assuming this is a story all know, it touches three essential points:
Unresolved grief, use of subterfuge to depossess a child of his rightful parent at the expense of the child to bypass the need to grieve and essentially the very wise method of seeking out the truth by a certainly wise judge.
IN researching your post, of course the first returned hit was from wiki
“The Judgment of Solomon is a story from the Hebrew Bible in which King Solomon of Israel ruled between two women both claiming to be the mother of a child. Solomon revealed their true feelings and relationship to the child by suggesting to cut the baby in two, with each woman to receive half. With this strategy, he was able to discern the non-mother as the woman who entirely approved of this proposal, while the actual mother begged that the sword might be sheathed and the child committed to the care of her rival. Some consider this approach to justice an archetypal example of an impartial judge displaying wisdom in making a ruling. ”
The added flavour of parental alienation is mine and all mine and you are more than welcome to disagree.
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 5:04 pm
This also form Wiki clarifies a bit my thought process
It does make reference to the case you mention Boonie # 63
As you can see though, the relevance of the story is simply in the dynamics and the actor’s choices
Funnily enough and contrary to common sense the below is recorded as salomonic judgement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon#Biblical_narrative
“Splitting the baby” / “Solomonic Judgment”
Solomon’s Wisdom, 1860 woodcut by Julius Schnorr von Karolsfeld
The expressions “splitting the baby” or “cutting the baby in half” can be used to describe a split award (usually accompanied by a split costs award) in the most for a heavy-handed, costs-insensitive suit (such as entailing multiple hearings and disproportionate spending on both sides) for a relatively simple compromise. The analogy reminds litigants to keep their costs down in cases where judge may well divide fault, i.e. may “split the difference” in terms of damage awards or other remedies between the two parties (a very common example is in a comparative negligence case also known as contributory negligence scenario).[59]
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 5:17 pm
What I’m curious about, JustCurious is this,
Whether you’re going to continue to abuse other contributes who disagree with you?
”
Ewan – just accept you do not know your history
”
Deliberately spelling people’s names wrong is a common tactic used in Family Law circles to aggrevate the opposition.
And that’s a little bit sad to see that going on here.
Comment by Downunder — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 5:17 pm
@66 – I notice your reply at 55 was to support Ewan who actually spoke out of his arse..
Rather than correcting him you came off nonchalantly trying to sweep his mistake under the carpet
(is that not what we dislike in the family court?)
I notice also my direct reply to you is ignored and like a good feminist, you wanna call it abuse…
This imbecilitic mindset is the one I wish to eradicate…
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 6:15 pm
#67
You’ve got me confused – 55 is what you said.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 6:24 pm
As a writer, I don’t mind saying, you have to accept criticism of your post.
You may offend some people.
But as contributors we should be on the same side.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 6:30 pm
I should add, there’s no right to offend, it’s a consequence of honest opinion.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 6:48 pm
Thanks Ewan for the correction
Above post from me referring to 56 from DOWN and UNDER 🙂
Anyways— whether King Solomom or the inmvasion of the solo_moms ..
The problem is the same. Men bickering, children grieving
confusion reigns, madness rules…we;come to Jamrock
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 7:08 pm
I’m happy that you have identified yourself as the problem.
It warms my heart, really it does.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 7:21 pm
Rastaferian is considered a direct descending arm of the Abrahamic religions.
If that’s the point you’re trying to make then write a post and explain yourself.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 7:55 pm
Downunder You – took down the first response to Craig’s death on a statemewnt that said that it raised the past. Hello Mr Power. Thank you for presenting accuracy on a man’s gift for his belief, by taking him down. I do not believe that that act is one of morality. I have no interest in the anecdotes from a/any Bible I want justice. So why not talk honesty and truth ratehr than diverting to “I am able to Marshall your collected interests”?
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Wed 24th July 2019 @ 8:41 pm
I want a system that doesn’t and can’t be used to trash people’s lives.
Comment by Downunder — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 8:16 am
#73 ~ Jah Blessings on you EWAN
“if that’s the point you are trying to make…”
I like how you keep trying to move the goal post.
The point has already been made…
Whether you want to ponder on it or not is up to you.
I think parental alienation is a mental illness that is contagious.
It is the concerned effort of a parent to psychologically kill the other parent in the other child.
Without some very strong court actions, the pathology gets transferred on the child.
It has some criminal intent and wreaks havoc on a child’s life, on the parent’s lives and on the family and community.
But it is an illness driven criminal crusade or post relationship…
Dr Craig Childress has done some phenomenal work on it following Gardner’s research.
Lookup reunification therapy
In fact the concept of parental alienation is not quite an accepted “idea” by the Judiciary.
You have more luck or success with Post relationship parental/child rejection.
Another problem which I referred to before is the input of the psychologist during court processes.
Not many judges can make heads or tails of those reports…
In fact, there are only a few that can interpret them…
That adds another level of delays and imbecilities and which never can be exploited appropriately… unless one Judge is clearly attuned and up to date with psychological litterature concerning this specific matter.
In this case, after twelve years in the court system, Judge Clarkson/Green is the one that cracked the code. In fact I learned more about parental alienation from her than all my researches. It’s kind of funny reading her judgement, I cried as it finally unblocked so much in me. I had almost died inside trying to help my kids, and yet, my every effort used against me.
However, legally, unless it is specifically “included ” in the law, no judge will make a ruling about parental alienation… It is still not a “real” pathology, you have to look for PATHOGENIC PARENTING so there is a lot of work to be done.
And the psychologist brief must include this assessment which is very easy and simple to do.
Btw I do not post to argue. simply keeping in mind people may come in here trying to work out what the fact is going on in their lives…
BEn Morland, in case you are confusing us, I am not Down or Under
Jah Rastafari
Comment by JustCurious — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 8:28 am
#76 perhaps you are right, but it’s not what I think it is, which is why I put this comment at #1
”
Parental alienation is a scale from temporary to severe.
In previous discussions it’s been clear that fathers at either end of this scale struggle to understand each other’s experience, why some get through it and others never get over it.
”
I gather you are expressing the intergenerational impact, that I think is learned behaviour developing in the way you expressed the nursery rhyme to the pschye.
I agree it is criminal but in that respect a transfer of purpose, that being to erase the other person, or persons. When they can’t do it themselves or the court doesn’t do it for them, they either use the child, or exhibit behaviours to control the child.
Comment by Downunder — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 9:06 am
The longer the case is seen as a case the more opportunity for alienation.
Expediency is not a word that seems to be cared about, urgency of resolution should be the norm.
Most people (as we were) are green coming into this realm of the justice system, we assumed it would be sensible and that there would be justice, we soon learned this to be BS,, it was shockingly cold and concrete and came down to the fact that some one had a better lawyer, this was not child friendly and in fact it seemed it was a given that a Father should be treated at arms length, no healing was on the agenda, and it ended badly. There is no retrospect regrets for the way we were, have a better lawyer and it goes on longer. The fact was we were up against a Woman willing to lie, oath or not and with a good lawyer and the system swallowing her every word, except right at the end two years after the break up a judge sees the light, by this time false allegations had been brought, not backed by any evidence Oranga Tamariki involvement unable to see any truth decides to back the Mother regardless, seeing this the safer option for themselves… all this even though the Mothers new Partner now a Father to a new child is now showing up as problematic too, no doubt he has been through the same wringer by now.
Comment by mama — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 9:31 am
From 75 down: That is a good reply. So let’s pretend that men have been trashed. Hence the site. The powerful do not realise that they are powerful until they feel invulnerable. Then when challenged – all of the matters raised become relevant.
The system requires people to be participant. Otherwise they are commodities. Forget the words like – (history says), remembering the most simple. Male, female, child. Simple rule.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 6:56 pm
76 paragraph 2 – I disagree. Did you feel your breasts lately? Where they dense? Check out RNZ National – morning report. Then figure what the message was. That is not to miss the feminist demand of competitive rebuke. Cancer is the human rust.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:02 pm
The ignorance of rule in this land’s modern society is that science will fix the human problems – and the debate goes on, apparently until now into perpetuity. Judges of science be they in the FC or otherwise in other economic environments lie. That is because the defendant had $10 worth of fact and the applicant has $10m dollars worth of opinion.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:09 pm
Sorry – error in text – that was 9 two noon.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:10 pm
Just Curious – you sound Indian to me for my experiences and you also sound to be particularly as well balanced to hurt others. When you say ‘arse’ – like talking out of – what part do you mean? fart or excrement?
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:24 pm
That is really funny. Then I am Ben Jamin – to you.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:27 pm
Maybe you are Italian? Chinese (any other racist suggestion) – or otherwise just plain nasty?
Cowards revert to violence – oo eer, I read it in a book.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:32 pm
“[t]hat only makes – oo err, the real expert.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:36 pm
At the moment I think you are an idiot. Nasty at that.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Thu 25th July 2019 @ 7:38 pm
Good morning Ben… I hope you are in a good spirit.
I can see your paint brunch is out to color me with any shade of God this morning…
I feel seriuously at a disadvantage when I cannot even comprehend your rants.
You do however make things a bit personal with this comment
“76 paragraph 2 – I disagree. Did you feel your breasts lately? Where they dense? Check out RNZ National – morning report. Then figure what the message was. That is not to miss the feminist demand of competitive rebuke. Cancer is the human rust.”
What you are disagreeing with is actually the only truth of the matter.
And stating the truth does not make me an expert, as the truth belongs to no one.
One is either able to recognize it or die trying to create an alternate reality.
Perhaps you think my way of speaking is arrogant? If so, you might be right.
Unless you are disagreeing simply to throw insults around.
I do not care about the gender of the parent as I am certain this is not a man vs woman issue
But a matter whereby men and women will have to bury the hatchet of war and come together for the interest of the child.
In fact the dynamic starts with the parent’s childhood – you (some of us) guys seem to wanna focus on women alone when the facts are that any “daddy’s girl” or any “mama’s boy” may turn into an alienating parent.
So men do it as well and that fact is inescapable.
Comment by JustCurious — Fri 26th July 2019 @ 8:10 am
Thanks JustCurious, I agree strongly:
I do not care about the gender of the parent as I am certain this is not a man vs woman issue
But a matter whereby men and women will have to bury the hatchet of war and come together for the interest of the child.
In fact the dynamic starts with the parent’s childhood – you (some of us) guys seem to wanna focus on women alone when the facts are that any “daddy’s girl” or any “mama’s boy” may turn into an alienating parent.
So men do it as well and that fact is inescapable.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 26th July 2019 @ 9:04 am
Thanks MurrayBacon,
Good to see not everyone is still under the psychosis of war.
Comment by JustCurious — Fri 26th July 2019 @ 10:18 am
So – thank you Murray as we arrive at the point. Yes, just curious well found. When put to a pressure the answer will surface as it must as it is truth. Rants, certainly. In your parcel of dialogue your personal circumstances emerged. The pain of being alienated. Now we are at the point of passive reintegration as the understanding are in queue ready to support the world no longer at war – the war between gender. Bollocks. You are both arguing for the establishment feminist jurisprudence. It is not about male and female it is about the feminist jurisprudence it is about the rules being made to allow the feminist to control the purse.
The figuring that I am arguing that I think you are arrogant is not entirely correct. You have correctly identified the function of the court where a judge is given little other weight than to rely on the report of an or any expert. That makes the Family Court an institution of opinion. The Court is for justice – not opinion. Additionally you make an observation that we have a lot to do. Oo err(or). Your observations – where you would attack another while propagating that opinion is the argument is misleading – vain more than arrogant.
No matter that the rants are unclear – some advice if you needed any – your children are from your body as the male parent as much as from the body of the wahine no matter that every child suckles in the (security), platform of the mother’s urine in order to later learn to love and once born, breath. As I told my daughter, the motor of your father is as much with you as the passion of your mother.
Alienation is poison. It is criminal.
Thank you for taking the time in reading my correspondence no matter that it may have made little sense.
Kind regards,
Benjamin.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Fri 26th July 2019 @ 4:35 pm
Craig as far as I am concerned was an excellent man – kind and contentious and like us all with a character that can sometimes be very difficult to understand.
Comment by Benjamin Morland Easton — Fri 26th July 2019 @ 4:38 pm
#91~ I am so glad you calmed down Ben…
I confess I have dealt with parental alienation.
And I know I will always have trauma from it
WE all are victims of birth… or something…
And mostly our own ignorance and good will.
My point is not to make others victims of our victim hood.
Some people see victim hood as a patch of nobility
and a way to sustain the festering wound through attention seeking
Whilst others see the suffering as a bridge to a higher consciousness…
And drop the weapons of war to take up the pen of reunification
Understanding is healing… Honesty is its light.
#92 -I am still left on my curiosity
and I hope you will not take injury from the following request:
please teach us “young foolish ones” about Craig and UOF … )Please and pretty please…)
Sounds like UOF should be renamed (Union of Fuckups) – (No insult intended.)
It seems both you and DownUnder made some rather incredible fuckups. (take it as you may)
And that both of you may have contributed to the downfall of Menz rightful former erections.
I do not believe it was deliberate but you guys were probably pretty raw in those days.(young and foolish probably- full of vigor and good intent but probably no discipline and replete with ego but no wisdom)…
Now you both are trying to throw glitter on your past actions and bringing us into it as witnesses or judges… (from your recent postings and those of DownUnder)
I am not interested in blames but simply an honest account of what went down
I shall go now and reheat the popcorn. 🙂
Comment by JustCurious — Fri 26th July 2019 @ 7:08 pm
Dear JustCurious, I understand your frustration when history is presented in tiny pieces, not well organised. I am similarly frustrated too. I saw some of the protests and was at some of the meetings, but there is much that I was never privy to.
But that does not justify: Sounds like UOF should be renamed (Union of Fuckups)
It is easy to later criticise people who tried to play, but without a real opportunity.
Are you challenging people to speak more clearly and fully?
When the people here are communicating haphazardly, then why not offer more positivity and encourage communication with clear and straightforward questions?
There are a lot of good stories, some poor and some disastrous. Some I have heard a part of. But many of those stories are not mine to tell, unfortunately.
I fear that these aspects of NZ history are being lost as we age and evidence is thrown away or dies or is destroyed in a moment of frustration.
Given the manipulation of public records, it is important that all sides of these stories are accurately available to people in the future. Then maybe they can make some understanding of what went on. If they cannot, then history is likely to be repeated.
Each of us should play a role in this.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 26th July 2019 @ 7:51 pm
Criminal is discovery of the truth
Civil is each to his own.
Equity is I think fairness not opinion
I think that is our media/bias and all other things.
That’s what drives people Down Under.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 27th July 2019 @ 1:03 am
#94 – YOU ARE RIGHT.
Maybe like king Solomon did, it is good at times to shock people into smelling their own bullshit.
When I read all the rants from veterans of that war, all I can witness is the end result which seems to be that all whom have participated at the front line have lost their briefs and wits.
Looks like feminism won hans down but the psychological and emotional defeat is so thorough, it appears as if they have formed an elite corp of avant guardist to exploit and defeat every possible aspiration from men to solve the problem for the next generation. Or even for the unification of men for the same purpose.
So it is not only frustration, it is also disappointment and almost despair when one sees that we are all getting long in the tooth, and yet still, those in charges of shining the light of the past for us have not only abdicated but are now priests or harbingers of doom.
There is a saying that “Kings dethroned become priests – for want of a court and a retenue”
However when these men seem to have no peace but to dash any one’s hope of a better world under a semblant of wisdom, experience or education (priest frock); then we have an even bigger problem as we have traitors among our mists…
Comment by JustCurious — Sat 27th July 2019 @ 2:34 pm
There is unity of men here. Some disagreement but we are the consequences of policy.
With the application of policy men group as mindless lawbreakers working for Feminists.
In the next post the innocent man from unity gets jailed but the gang of policy are the lawbreakers.
Comment by Evan Myers — Sat 27th July 2019 @ 3:48 pm
#95 – What brings men down under is simply the fact that there is only an appearance of justice crouched into protocols and procedures defeating any attempt to reach at truth and equity.
#97 – There is no unity of men here. There are men looking for answers and others (hand brakes) whom think they have all the answers to the point of fighting anyone trying to change the status quo.
However for us to reach unicity, we must first be able to at least accept one thing, we are not united but the problem is ours to fix. No one will do it for us…
AS a suggestion, could we maybe get some of you guys who seem so well versed in the law to give advice? – sorry law society has monopoly of legal advice – so opinions maybe?
So that the arguments are no longer personal but at least edifying on the law itself
Or maybe make a group of men willing to donate time and effort to help others? Like start by building something constructive Like – “No men left behind!”
Comment by JustCurious — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 10:33 am
Downunder doesn’t mean down and under. He is a representative character.
He’s part of the conversation.
Comment by Bevan Berg — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 12:01 pm
98,,,Just Curious….Or maybe make a group of men willing to donate time and effort to help others? Like start by building something constructive Like – “No men left behind!”
I motion to second that notion.
Comment by mama — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 12:48 pm
#99 … Talking does help… But as long as we post only to support a person instead of a purpose… I have a hard time believing the people posting ever left the family court behind.
#100~ Happy hundy!!!!
Comment by JustCurious — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 6:12 pm
#101,,, but Judge it is hard to leave it behind when it affected your life so, if it were just one person it may be possible but when it is person + policy = alienation it is hard to forgive and forget.. thereby the need to reach out and the feelin that perhaps if you spew enough it will finally possibly leave you or with hope of action one day you can help another somehow at the top of that cliff.
Comment by mama — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 7:39 pm
#102` very true… It is impossible to forget… However I do believe we are only the product of our circumstances until we figure out what those circumstances were… And then we are either the product of complacency or of knowledge… With complacency, we become victims and seekers of attention… With knowledge, we move from re-acting to acting until the time when can simply be…
The first thing removed from us is our serenity. WE must fight to get that back… The rest is simply eternity.
I guess part of the frustration is that there is no help.
This site here is one of the few where a glimmer of hope might at times appear.
But soon enough dashed by overzealous veterans too fearful of hope or too battle weary to allow any excitement.. taking it for a personal affront… or for fear of a revisiting bout of post trauma stress…
Comment by JustCurious — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 8:05 pm
Curious,,, did you manage to find serenity?
Comment by mama — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 8:09 pm
Yes and no…
Yes because I have gone through parental ally-nation with truth and good faith as my only weapon.
So I have no guilt nor shame and I know I have done my best with my limited resources…
http://www.districtcourts.govt.nz/all-judgments/2017-nzfc-5189-allen-v-wade/
Or maybe better
http://www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/sinodisp/nz/cases/NZHC/2018/1880.html?query=title(Allen%20and%20Wade%20)
After all this, the police and cyfs swooped in and made a mess of a carefully contracted plan to save this child from an abusive and confirmed motha_buser and who is a psychologist who works for CYFS. They simply kidnapped him and returned him into her care. What she could not prove in the family court and was found guilty of doing; now the cops are giving her a new platform in the criminal court.
So Yes to some extent I am serene but very hurt still and grieving not just for myself or children but for any other kiwi and their children. the situation is abhorrent.
If the police and CYFS cannot be made accountable then no point going through the family court. Or any other court for that matter…
Comment by JustCurious — Mon 29th July 2019 @ 10:15 pm
Dear Judge Curious, I do not quite know what to say, although that long and winding road would have been what we faced and chose not to….you should have internal serenity bestowed upon you at least, a Man truly there for his children no matter what… a shame it was not seen in this light at an earlier time….ps should you not remove it from here now?
Comment by mama — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 10:58 am
I would add that I also took a matter to a Hight Court Registrar, who immediately put it before a High Court Judge.
As the matter was resolved immediately my realistic assumption was that The Family Court was instructed to obey the law.
Comment by Bevan Berg — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 11:15 am
#107,,obey the law and obey the law and obey the law…
Comment by mama — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 11:18 am
#108 precisely.
Comment by Bevan Berg — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 11:22 am
I think hiding behind anonymity is not the way to go.
That is a wall behind which alienation hides and continues to prosper.
I may have also through this process unwittingly shed all my layers of fear or apprehension.
Do not misquote me though, I am still filed with idiocy and good intent, even though at times idealistic.
The problem is that all the different parts of the system have to be examined separately and then brought together to bring out each input and see reality for what it is.
WE have the courts relying on psychologists to “diagnose” parental alienation…
What if the psychologist is herself an alienator?
Imagine, a confirmed child abuser, working for CYFS and out there writing psychologist reports for the courts?
Imagine the cops pulling a child out of a safe environment just to return him to the care of that emotionally abusive parent.
Can you imagine what it means in terms of credibility of the courts and of the police and of cyfs?
Or of liability for the harm they themselves are causing that child.
This is the level of absurdity that baffles my serenity.
And replaces my serenity with perplexity..
How can we raise awareness to what is really going on?
The system cannot provide what it advertises. The harm caused does not justify the outcome.
How can we protect ourselves and our children from what is going on?
And how can we help others GOING RIGHT NOW through this?
Comment by JustCurious — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 11:47 am
The law is the grip that is keeping it all there, there where this is happening still.
The problem exists because natural law has no place there. To be somewhat idealistic is necessary to keep an element of hope.
The Maori are being idealistic but may still gain traction for their way for their people..but it the whole system that has to get away from the law in order to manage in a ‘family’ oriented way.
I do not think it wrong to be idealistic when the cause is in the best interest of the human.
Comment by mama — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 1:04 pm
Parental Alienation | Jennifer Harman | TEDxCSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3YdldNXZnQ
Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 3:46 pm
#112,, thanks Murray, can she be on our team?,, the custody evaluation tool is magic.
Comment by mama — Tue 30th July 2019 @ 4:42 pm
110,,,Judge,,,you are of Irish genes too, no?
Comment by mama — Wed 31st July 2019 @ 12:43 pm
114~ Irish in idealism perhaps…. 🙂
#77 ~ I think you have nailed the entire dynamic,
~~~#76 perhaps you are right, but it’s not what I think it is, which is why I put this comment at #1
~~~”Parental alienation is a scale from temporary to severe.
““In previous discussions it’s been clear that fathers at either end of this scale struggle to ““understand each other’s experience, why some get through it and others never get over it.”
I think you raise a critical point here.
It ranges definitely from temporary or mild to severe.
So each individual experiences it their own way.
However at the end of it always, reconstruction must take effect.
And I think thus not many people have the time, luxury or energy to try
and combat it outside of their immediate vicinity.
And thus, the disease continues and spreads.
Every one licks their wounds. Life goes on.
Everyone that escapes returns back into their reality
and hopefully shuts the door forever to litigation.
Before long however men will be churned a dozen a day
Simply because no one has nay energy left to raise the flag of surrender.
#77 ~”I gather you are expressing the intergenerational impact, that I think is learned behaviour developing in the way you expressed the nursery rhyme to the pschye.
I think you might be missing a key ingredient here.
Relocation is the first step.
Followed by intrusion in the child’s psyche.
IF that does not work, then litigation is used.
Followed by further intrusion in the child psyche.
Litigation will not work unless the parent can alter the views of the child.
For as long as the child views is conform with those of the alienating parent
No lawyer or judge will dare intervene in the alienation process without properly tested psychologist input.
So litigation, essentially, is the supreme tool of alienation.
“I gather you are expressing the intergenerational impact, that I think is learned behaviour developing in the way you expressed the nursery rhyme to the pschye.”
The truth is that parental alienation is a part of parental development or lack thereof.
What has changed however is that the courts are used to propagate it as an epidemic.
“I agree it is criminal but in that respect a transfer of purpose, that being to erase the other person, or persons. When they can’t do it themselves or the court doesn’t do it for them, they either use the child, or exhibit behaviours to control the child.”
I do not believe the criminality is in the transfer of purpose.
There is no criminal intent in wanting the erase the other parent in the psyche of the child.
This level of unconscious functioning can only be found beyond the vision of madness/grief unresolved.
So the parent doing it is driven emotionally at their core from a programming they themselves are unaware of.
I believe it to be more of a psychological and emotional need to compete for a child’s support against the other parent than it is an intent to erase the other parent.
The erasure is simply a symbolic elevation of the alienating parent as the better parent.
A confirmation that that parent pathological reality is actually true and accurate and triumphant over any shared consciousness/reality.
However, I think, the criminal aspect is turning the child into a psychological hostage.
And the misleading of the various authorities to interlope in the relation-ship.
And the fact that it is tempering with a child’s identity as well as being one of the most insidious forms of emotional abuse.
Comment by JustCurious — Thu 1st August 2019 @ 10:24 am
What if the criminality is an omission of duty?
Comment by Bevan Berg — Thu 1st August 2019 @ 11:02 am
#116 ~ that might be at the root of the problem
Duty to shield child from the adult conflict (imagined or real)
becomes duty to prevail, even at the child’s expense
Comment by JustCurious — Thu 1st August 2019 @ 12:24 pm
#116 ~ can you please expand (criminality = omission of duty?)
I might be thinking along other lines.
Or are you referring to s59 of crimes act and duty to investigate?
S59(4) Crimes Act 61 ~To avoid doubt, it is affirmed that the Police have the discretion not to prosecute complaints against a parent of a child or person in the place of a parent of a child in relation to an offence involving the use of force against a child, where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in proceeding with a prosecution.
Police guidelines
“In Attorney-General v Hewitt [2000] NZAR 148 a full bench of the High Court held that adopting a policy to automatically arrest a suspect without allowing for exceptional circumstances was not lawful. The High Court also held that a failure to consider the discretion to arrest was unlawful and arbitrary under section 22 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Discretion must be used by staff. “
Comment by JustCurious — Thu 1st August 2019 @ 12:53 pm
It always makes me feel more vindicated listening to the reason of experts like these..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9adWOSh1FJs
Comment by mama — Mon 5th August 2019 @ 4:21 pm
Dear mama, thank you for the YouTube link. I was amazed at the number of recent conferences on the topic of Parental Alienation Syndrome, in Canada and USA, that show up in the YouTube recommendations list.
It has taken a long time for academics to get involved in this awkward to study issue. But at least it is now happening. In one case, an academic was victim to PAS, even though she is a woman.
Academics have made valuable progress in generating warnings about manipulative police interviewing techniques used on children and suggestible adults.
Lets hope that similar progress can be made on dealing constructively with protecting both children’s and parents interests.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 6th August 2019 @ 3:44 pm
#112
That video clip has some valid information.
What makes me uncomfortable is that the presenter is a survivor of domestic violence and dresses like a child.
Some basic research confirms she is part of a larger collaboration and that would suggest individually she is a parrot and not a performer.
Comment by Boonie — Tue 6th August 2019 @ 4:51 pm
#120 The link at #119 is quite long but worthwhile for someone trying to catch up.
The information in that link was available here 15 years ago.
To draw a comparison you see in that video the presenter talking about adult children in the audience having a light bulb moment then look back to #5 and see the head-on accident happening in New Zealand.
That’s not because of academics being slow off the mark.
The other thing pointed out in the video is politics before people and that’s what’s happening here. Denial and suppression.
Are academics go into meltdown over the suggestion of trying to denal with the fallout and recognizing the depth of the issue.
Tell me this thread is clear recognition of that.
Comment by Boonie — Wed 7th August 2019 @ 6:46 am
That last bit should be …
Our academics go into meltdown over the suggestion of trying to deal with the fallout and recognizing the depth of the issue as World Health is doing.
Tell me this thread is clear recognition of that?
Comment by Boonie — Wed 7th August 2019 @ 6:49 am
Hey Boonie and Murray,,,, Boonie I will always be playing catch up on these issues because the lack of common sense in handling such delicate and important an issue will always be baffling.
It makes sense to only look at what is and is not real at the beginning of such issues, to involve any person other than an utter specialist is insane.
The link to the video in #119, was good for me to understand that such issues have a knowledged path for such a specialist as she and that it should never never be in the hands of any LFC or Counsellor etc,,,only specialists like these should be involved, any thing other than this is a tragedy ion the making.
Comment by mama — Wed 7th August 2019 @ 3:24 pm
124 These issues have been busily ignored.
*The aggressive parent doesn’t necessarily not understand what’s going on. So, they can switch the behavior on and off or change the manner of behaviour.
*We are now into a next generation of symptoms such as;
The winner writing or rewriting history on social media.
Enlisting other people to help.
Using the delayed maturity of children to continue the process both within a generation and into the subsequent generation.
Using alienated child’s social media accounts by accessing that account or using the alienated child to publish on that account.
I don’t share your enthusiasm that some professional is going to halt that process but if we are not prepared to accept the reality and investigate it then expect the consequences.
We’re falling further behind the 8 ball on this with every evasive maneuver that political oriented individuals take on behalf of feminism rather than children.
Comment by Boonie — Wed 7th August 2019 @ 4:17 pm
here is a link that speaks volume… about an hour long.
Has not been debunked yet and not likely to be but looking at it from child attachment theory.
Also describes how a parent can emotionally control a child enough to program them to side with the alienating parent.
Dr Craig Childress – Treatment of parental; alienation
https://youtu.be/ezBJ3954mKw?t=61
Comment by JustCurious — Thu 8th August 2019 @ 10:02 am
Should be
#126 speaks volumes …
The psychologists should be treating the lawyers.
They’re more fucked in the head than the woman you’re dealing with
Comment by Boonie — Thu 8th August 2019 @ 3:09 pm
#127 ~thanks for the insult 🙂
I used to get angry when people called her a bitch ass she is the mother of my children.
Now that my rose tinted glasses are removed… I may have to agree with you.
However when you get to understand the psychology of an alienator, it all makes sense and no need for name calling…
They are simply unhappy and that kind of unhappiness is a curse worse than any judgement or incarceration. It is a life sentence of misery… Stay far and away is the best conduct.They are infectious.
my ex is a psychologist whom has used young children to mislead both the family and criminal courts in NZ… and overseas and still does… and still writes reports for the courts even after the family court themselves made a complain to the psychologist board.
And she is still registered. And works for CYFS whom has the worst collection of psychopaths.
I frankly would not trust a psychologist (“psycho-logic” It takes a thief to catch a thief) but there are good ones – far and too few to count on one hand.
or lawyer (the people with the lest amount of good personal judgement- rare to find a good one – (created by the system for a specific purpose only to process the living)
and worse a judge (only know how to use the law as an emotional blanket of security) to protect himself from liability.I was lucky to meet a couple of good ones.
I was listening to lawyers speak to one another yesterday and they were bitching about the local cops… I almost felt bad for them. One of them was saying, “At least in the north shore, we can communicate and collaborate with the cops. But here, they simply push through to get the convictions. And then we go to a hearing, we can’t even get in, they changed all the codes. WE called the law society who gave us access but then it was revoked by the courts. Once in we found that the hearing was at 12:15, instead of 14:15, and no one told us anything so my client remains in jail whilst we find another date.”
Then I spoke to A WOMAN WHO DESCRIBED HER EXPERIENCE WITH THEM “My ex boss had suspicions I was smoking pot. During a break, she looked into my handbag and found a half joint. She called the cops on me. I found out when I got home. They were waiting for me. They found a small amount and told me since I had kids that ‘I could admit guilt or have my kids taken away through CYFS.’ ”
This judicial system and all surrounding it is a cancer
Comment by JustCurious — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 9:10 am
#126 It’s an intense video, full of industry jargon. Even without the repetitions you wouldn’t cut it down to 3:05.
The bulk of it makes sense to me. I can relate to what he saying.
Regardless of the diagnosis or the debate of the qualification of that this guy at least understands the process. He understands the dynamics and how they play out.
This is the best overview I’ve seen so far.
For anyone it the ‘parental alienation’ situation (although Childers rejects that description) then this will be very helpful. But it may need to be explained in simpler language to make it digestible to a distressed father.
Childers has at least done the research to see the ongoing generation impact.
Whether it is seated in the previous generation he has determined its ongoing pathology into subsequent generations.
This is one of the extremes for different cases where some me have been subject to an ongoing situation and others are suddenly confronted by two strangers independent subject to the same situation.
Comment by Boonie — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 9:40 am
Where some me(n) – should have been men.
Comment by Boonie — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 9:43 am
From a personal perspective this was visible and explainable.
Having to deal with four psychologists who couldn’t arrive work this out suggests we are dealing with a bunch of incompetent fuc-wits, unrepentant political tools or both.
The taxpayer has forked an extraordinary amount of money into a secret environment that has allowed this to unnecessarily go on.
Comment by Boonie — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 9:49 am
In dealing with the PA situation, it becomes overwhelming and easily obscured other situations and potential dangers. That does absolutely nothing for vulnerable children. Quite the opposite it increases their vulnerability.
I should have mentioned in the comment above that the second half on the video is a little clearer and there are some good questions at the end.
In conclusion Childers describes this as a child protection issue.
On that basis it shows our system is set up in total conflict to that presumption.
Be interesting to have a timeline of events as the introduction of the DVA by an American import may have been a direct response to what was happening in the US rather than what should have happened in this country.
Comment by Boonie — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 10:04 am
Childers is obviously approaching this from an investigative and therapy direction.
What I didn’t like was his use of the term intergenerational collaboration between the mother and the child.
He later turned that to a ‘hostage situation’.
First he puts the mother and child on equal terms of participation then changes then turns it to a criminal situation.
This is the area in which I believe our debates are often centered.
Whose fault is this and how do we stop what’s happening.
His proposed intervention method is very different to what happens here.
Comment by Boonie — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 10:10 am
#131,,, Boonie,,,”…allowed this to unnecessarily go on”….
I started to watch Childress’ video, .. the ‘jargon’ is hard to stomach when you have had too many whiffs of it in the past…academics stick together in their shit streets and make us wade through them to prove they can do it with ease because THEY understand it and we do not, we can not BELIEVE it , it’s supposed to be their for US?,, to protect US? What do they learn the jargon for?
Childress proves to me that we do not WANT TO PROVE anything!, that NO LEGAL PROCESS is WANTED or NEEDED in a Family situation!!!!
Mediate before any lables need to be put on any behaviours, before any behaviours are out of control, and if behaviours are out of control at the beginning they can be seen for what they are, I am sure a Mediating Judge can recognise a narcissist a mile away.
Let the legal process start and end with a Judge, let the lawyer be left to financial and other legal necessesties, keep them away from the Family!!!!
Comment by mama — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 10:18 am
It is interesting to note that a problematic Mother may be like this with her Child from almost day one. I have witnessed this , it is ugly to watch mind control of an innocent.
Comment by mama — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 10:25 am
134
That’s the main reason I made the comment about a video of two halves.
Childers is obviously very emotionally invested in his work. I also didn’t view him as a confident public speaker and he disguises that with over professionalism.
He stops gasping for breath and relaxes a bit in the second half of the video.
Let’s not let that detract too much from what I would suggest is some very detailed and intense research that allowed him to make that speech.
Perhaps I should have said, he needs an interpreter.
Comment by Boonie — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 10:43 am
136,,Boonie, sorry I did not really mean to criticize Childress and I have listened to more, the point I make is that we would not need to have so many academics explaining these things to us if the a system was to care more about the ‘family’ in the first instance. I guess if we did this you would have crazy people doing crazy things upon not getting there way…the tables would be some what turned.
Does a narcissist make a narcissist?
It seems though that Childress is talking alot about borderline personality in relation to PAS, when in reality the option is open to all within the current system.
Comment by mama — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 11:10 am
What was your instant reaction when you saw that … a disease?
This question is at the beginning of this POST by Downunder.
I did not know enough around the subject to comment at first, now I feel that as other have said there is a disease but it lies in the system and the use of the system and in the heads of some narcissists, that a narcissistic person is allowed to have complete guiding power of children is a biggie, those children will not survive unscathed.
Comment by mama — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 11:19 am
there is always a solution to real problems
But you will find never any for a fake problem.
The system cannot fix fake problems
and everyone who tries becomes the real problem…
Downunder nailed it straight this time (a transfer of purpose)
sucking people in and letting them do the dirty work for the manipulator
Makes you think of a body snatcher or another version of
” poor me I am a victim” tactic … men always get sucked in.
Males lawyers and cops are the worst of friend of the alienator
It is an identity disfiguration…
With a criminal element
And A child protection issue
Comment by JustCurious — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 1:36 pm
There’s been some attempt to discuss identity here before but it hasn’t gone far.
What are you thinking when you say ‘Identity disfiguration?
Comment by Boonie — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 2:16 pm
140 – long post by many cut and paste
Not being a psychologist I probably could not tell you what an identity is without looking it up.
We might have to get the MeNiSTRY OF MEN to help us on this one
So will leave it to you to define it as you wish assuming we both accept that a child’s identity is the building of a healthy ego as the intermediary between the world around him and the child/human within and that child’s own vision of oneself within the framework we call our reality (including family, culture, language (behind every language is a mentality) and aspects of normal life).
Attachment theory is a matter of survival, either of the self or of the ego.
A child identity is the critical system as a building block of a child relationship with the world.
For it to be a relationship there must be a form of duality, (subject and object) and then connection, relativity.
Dr Childress spoke amply of pathogenic parenting, child attachment theory and much more but essentially just a quick wiki search about stockholm syndrome reveals a lot more dynamics involved in the process. However the proceeding results are all the same. The child becomes a psychological hostage and therefore its developing identity is directly linked into and controlled by the alienating parent.
It is almost like keeping a child from growing up and yet, and at the same time, replacing his innocence with adult concerns.
The child has to compensate naturally by erecting emotiono/psychological defenses/resillience which thwart building a healthy identity or healthy coping mechanism even if he/she seems to be collaborating with the alienating parent.
“Stockholm syndrome is a condition which causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors during captivity. These alliances result from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time together, but they are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims.”
This is of interest. However the issue with this is that most people undergoing “stockhold Syndrome” are facing a life and death situation but have no previous relationship with the abductor or hostage taker.
You can however see how an irrational dependency can be created between adults abductees and abductors. So for a child, the dynamic are only oh so natural.
However when you start following the relating links in that same wiki article you start reading about Atlas personality, co dependency, cognitive dissonnance ….
On COgnitive dissonance:
“In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort (psychological stress) experienced by a person who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by the person. When confronted with facts that contradict beliefs, ideals, and values, people will try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[1][2]
In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency to function mentally in the real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance, by making changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance.”
This is of interest because that is at the root cause of the issue. The term dissonance itself is so apt, I wonder if the person coining realized its true significance in broader terms.
AS Tesla has famously quoted, energy is about vibration, resonance and frequency. Happiness, health, love, wealth, reality and pretty much our entire reality is one of resonance. When you introduce dissonance at the identity level, an immature person and mind can only apply their best method to resolve the dissonance as highlighted above.
Naturally a child loves both parents and if the only choice presented is to abandon one parent for the sake of another parent and the child is immersed in that dynamic long enough, he/she must find a way to accept the reality of that other parent otherwise splitting will occur in the child.
As a cause of cognitive dissonance, you start looking at Atlas personality
“The Atlas personality is typically found in a person who felt obliged during childhood to take on responsibilities (extending beyond normal household chores or looking after siblings) such as providing psychological support to parents, often in a chaotic family situation.[1]
The result in adult life can be a personality devoid of fun, and feeling the weight of the world on their shoulders. Depression and anxiety, as well as over-sensitivity to others and an inability to assert their own needs, are further identifiable characteristics. In addition, there may also be an underlying rage against the parents for not having provided love, and for exploiting the child for their own narcissistic needs.
While Atlas personalities may appear to function adequately as adults, they may be pervaded with a sense of emptiness and be lacking in vitality. ”
This is the basic building block of alienation. Providing psychological support to parents often in a chaotic situation (post relationship trauma or child rejection)
Personailty devoid of fun = Obsessive compulsive, manipulative, resentful, lack of empathy
over-sensitivity to others = emotional intelligence through the roof but no sense of self as the identity has entirely been consummated in the process. They become aware only at an emotional level and confuse some basic building blocks of life such as love with attention (negative attention seeking = attention as the basis of identity/existence or reward as a replacement for love)
For this all to be, codependency must be the structure of the relationship between child and alienating parent. Child as an emotional/psychological support for the narcissistic parent.
“Codependency is a behavioral condition in a relationship where one person enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.[1] Among the core characteristics of codependency is an excessive reliance on other people for approval and a sense of identity.[1] Definitions of codependency vary, but it is generally defined as a subclinical, situational, and/or episodic behavioral condition similar to that of dependent personality disorder. The term is less individually diagnostic and more descriptive of a relationship dynamic.[1] This condition is controversial among psychologists”
This is the saddle upon which the child’s identity is undermined.. the child relinquishes their own identity and replace it with dependence.Their identity thus become a co-factor to the dynamics and conditioned by the framework imposed.
“A codependent is someone who cannot function on their own and whose thinking and behavior is instead organized around another person, process, or substance.[12] Many codependents place a lower priority on their own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.”
In this case, their thinking and behavior is programmed and controlled by another person.
Enmeshment is another of interest
“Enmeshment is a concept in psychology and psychotherapy introduced by Salvador Minuchin (1921-2017) to describe families where personal boundaries are diffused, sub-systems undifferentiated, and over-concern for others leads to a loss of autonomous development.[1] Enmeshed in parental needs, trapped in a discrepant role function,[2] a child may lose their capacity for self-direction;[3] their own distinctiveness, under the weight of “psychic incest”;[4] and, if family pressures increase, may end up becoming the identified patient or family scapegoat.[5]
Enmeshment was also used by John Bradshaw to describe a state of cross-generational bonding within a family, whereby a child (normally of the opposite sex) becomes a surrogate spouse for their mother or father.[6]
The term is sometimes applied to engulfing codependent relationships,[7] where an unhealthy symbiosis is in existence.[8]
For the toxically enmeshed child, the adult’s carried feelings may be the only ones they know, outweighing and eclipsing their own.[9] ”
For the toxically enmeshed child, the adult’s carried feelings may be the only ones they know, outweighing and eclipsing their own.[9] ”
For the toxically enmeshed child, the adult’s carried feelings may be the only ones they know, outweighing and eclipsing their own.[9] ”
That sums up the parental alienator… she/he is toxic to a child’s ientity
all the above (not inclusive – just a quick perusal) [to me] relate to the basic building blocks of a child developing identity being chipped away at relentlessly by one parent whom continuously advertise herself as the victim.
I guess one can go on forever down the rabbit hole (learned helpelessnes is one I had to deal with.)
When you get your child back, you realize they speak only 4 languages
Power struggle = I am an adult, I can do what I want (anger is the tell tale sign – if you feel angry, you know what you dealing with)
Revenge = You are mean, you do not love me. you only care about. you left me… yaaada yada yda yada (just a bait to get you to engage… They create shame and try to hurt you emotionally… when you feel hurt, you know what you are dealing with)
Helplessness = or learned helpelssness – I do no tlike science… it’s too hard… I do not care about school, I do not need good grades. I am going to be a builder anyway. who needs maths? (when you feel despairing you know what you are dealing with) (most immature parent engage and try to get the child to change their views about school little knowing it’s just a trap to engage into attention seeking.)
Attention seeking = when you feel frustrated, you know what you dealing with
With those 4 behaviors, you rock between frustration, anger, hurt and despair and all the while your heart is hemorrhaging for that child so near and yet so fucking far in someone’s else’ identity and reality
In fact you look at the other parent behaviour and you see that it reflects the child’s own as if it was modeled from that parent..
Frustration = they thwart any possibility for you to have a healthy relationship with your child
Hurt = They spend their entire lives hiring unsuspecting interlopers into your relationship with your children (children’s rejection as the goal)
Anger = They spend a world of money to paint you in the darkest of paint as an evil monster to anyone or anyone (litigation as a way to punish you for any assumed wrong – socially dividing the community into haters against you [her supporters])
Despair = you are isolated, misunderstood, feeling helpless, broke and inadequate and worse unable to even protect your own children nonetheless your own self from abuse
This is probably the worse of alienation. Each one has their own muted version.
Comment by JustCurious — Fri 9th August 2019 @ 11:40 pm
The victim has no previous relationship with the hostage taker.
If the father is the defining force and the mother is not able to exert that degree of control then the child after separation is now subject to an identity they had no previous relationship with.
I think you accidentally wrote yourself out of that argument.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 9:51 am
Childer’s video at 126 is helpful not just in itself but because it’s incomplete and offers good starting points.
One in particular is his view on the acceptance of a broad spectrum of parenting that he describes in a scale of 0 – 100. I would call his extremes socially unacceptable and socially undesirable.
Other contributors might have a different view of the extremes.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 9:59 am
#141 I’m looking at your comment from men’s issues and totally relevant to the consequences of the situation.
And perhaps why we don’t look at identity.
The idea of being boxed into attachment theory would probably put guys off commenting. It’s also probably the basis of our disagreements over the touchy-feely group, those other guys they want nothing to do with, and the rest who have got something better to do.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 10:04 am
In analalysing the Feminist perspective can we look at this;
Say Childer’s idea of intergenerational attachment, survival, and identity are all roughly the same thing. He may have been politically smart enough to avoid going here or maybe it didn’t cross his mind.
He is looking for fault seated in the previous generation, transferred into the alienating parent. In particular abuse by the father.
It’s not secret that children from seemingly ordinary families can end up in cults, leaving the parents confused, distressed, and desperate.
A similar situation exists here.
The mother has an identity relative to the parent generation. But also has a cult identity relative to feminism. The constant propaganda, the expectations, the demands, social pressures, peer pressures, activist pressures.
As Childer says the attachment theory is a life long situation.
You get a group of females with conflicted identities.
When they struggled to deal with life with a partner, their true identity is compromised and they are now tied to their cult identity, alone in a house with children and probably a protection order.
It’s just a bipolar disorder, quite natural, just accept it.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 10:20 am
142 # You might be right –
Your statement at 142 puzzles me though.
Since it’s starting with an “If” followed by an “AND” and a “THEN” I take it, it is a supposition or a conditional statement leading to a conclusion driven out of possibly a personal scenario.
However the dynamic I was trying to highlight in referring to the stockholm syndrome is
IF perfect ADULT strangers can be drawn into that dynamic of co-dependency’ then imagine a child whose survival has always been linked with the presence of his mother (assuming in this case the mother is the alienator).
The fact that it happens to adult strangers (whom have already developed an identity separate from that of the abductor) makes it even more poignant in the case of a child whom has not yet developed an independent reality.
Comment by JustCurious — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 10:58 am
#145 ~ I think we might be complicating the dynamics.
Feminism is simply opportunistic interloping in the family dynamic by elevating a person to the status of a protected gender.
Sadly it is a reality as it has become a war cry and a legally established system to create policies of protection to turn adults into irresponsible parents using the black and white approach.
Male is bad (criminalize) v female is good (overpower).
AS you see not all female jump on the bandwagon but many do.
And even with a prevalent feminist protective driven approach at a systematic level, we do find that many men are also alienators.
The fallacy I believe the psychologist tend to engage into is when they try to make everything caused by abuse in the child now turned parent. If only women were alienators, that could actually stick.
However in the case of a male alienator, can we still adopt the sexual abuse back alley from a parent? And if so would it have to be incest from mother to male child?
Comment by JustCurious — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 11:13 am
Boonie,
you may be forgetting about dynamics among siblings from the same household that could lead to it and parental reactions to each possibly exacerbating it.
Something like oldest child v youngest child of the same household.
Different treatment of the differing personalities of each child.
And also the difference between a personality (birth trait) and the formation of an identity (psycho-emotional make up).
You might be right that the resulting issue might be borderline personality but what causes it essentially is still source of conflict.
Comment by JustCurious — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 11:19 am
If there was a problem in the relationship and then it fell apart what did anyone make of that or have we been conditioned to accept a preconceived explanation and not explore that.
Why do you link survival to the mother?
Is that your personal experience?
The fact that it happens to adult strangers (whom have already developed an identity separate from that of the abductor) makes it even more poignant in the case of a child whom has not yet developed an independent reality.
So, the child is suddenly forced into an adult situation forced to deal with a personality they had no previous relationship with.
Perhaps that’s the way Childer views it in terms of a collaboration.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 11:22 am
”
Feminism is simply opportunistic interloping in the family dynamic by elevating a person to the status of a protected gender.
”
You surely can’t be serious?
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 11:35 am
Boonie:
“If there was a problem in the relationship and then it fell apart what did anyone make of that or have we been conditioned to accept a preconceived explanation and not explore that.”
The exploration shall always continue but the reasons are many and varied.
Each must pick what satisfies them. I believe relationships fall apart due to lack of compatibility. Imagine the best business model and all the resources possible to running it to success but the managers cannot agree to one implementation of the business model and each chooses to follow their own personal choices…it will be a disaster… Same as a relationship… people get together for many reasons but if no compatibility between partners, it becomes a quagmire… I am sure you have heard of honeymoon and rose tinted glasses and PMS 🙂 Reality does trump. We have not chosen our business partners… We have simply accepted them… at least nowadays, most people do until they wake next to a complete stranger.
“Why do you link survival to the mother?”
Men do not give birth nor do they have a baby in their tummy for nine months nor do they breastfeed that child nor do they have a congenital/umbilical bond/cord with a child. Nor do they become mothers nor are they conditioned to not rest until that child is safe, well fed and healthy.
This is programming both on the mother and child, nature way of co-dependency.
Actually for most of humanity. giving birth is still a life and death issue. AND A TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE FOR SOME….
Not “many” men can boast of having had such an experience that changes you and your life forever as well as being the lifeline of another human such as a mother is to a child. The best men can due is provide security, safety and support to the mother and child.
“Is that your personal experience?”
🙂
“The fact that it happens to adult strangers (whom have already developed an identity separate from that of the abductor) makes it even more poignant in the case of a child whom has not yet developed an independent reality.
So, the child is suddenly forced into an adult situation forced to deal with a personality they had no previous relationship with.
Perhaps that’s the way Childer views it in terms of a collaboration.”
I think you are confusing a hostage taking situation at gun point and the slow steady negative reinforcement of cognitive dissonance.
Comment by JustCurious — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 12:26 pm
Dear You Guys,,, I am always in wonderment of your keeping coming back to discuss these problems within society.
Maybe our Fore Fathers were somewhat correct in ignoring the emotive nature of the human personality, Mothers went along with it too and we seemingly had less confusion about things such as identity…for sure the Feminist position has been to drag the emotive issues out in to the open, but it is not serving us well.
It is crushing to hear one mans story but knowing people are struggling all around can be overwhelming.
You Guys have so much knowledge now, do you not want to put it to use to help quell some of the confusion out their?
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 12:29 pm
#150
In fact, it is true… this slogan says it all
“Protect women and children from domestic violence”
Another example is affirmative action… same difference… the protected become the abusers
“(in the context of the allocation of resources or employment) the practice or policy of favouring individuals belonging to groups known to have been discriminated against previously; positive discrimination.”
one critic
“Some argue that affirmative action policies create an opportunity for fraud, by encouraging non-preferred groups to designate themselves as members of preferred groups (that is, members of groups that benefit from affirmative action) in order to take advantage of group preference policies”
Another critic (replace racial with gender)
“critics may argue that affirmative action hinders reconciliation, replaces old wrongs with new wrongs, undermines the achievements of minorities, and encourages individuals to identify themselves as disadvantaged, even if they are not. It may increase racial tension and benefit the more privileged people within minority groups at the expense of the least fortunate within majority groups.
Same difference crouched beneath a need for equality but really simply a template for more wrongs.
Comment by JustCurious — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 12:46 pm
#151
Just Curious
The same subtle abuse.
The same destructive informal fallacy.
Let me oblige with your usual apologies.
“Oh, I’m sorry.
Naughty me.
Highjacking another thread.
For the purposes of my covert feminism.”
Happy now?
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 12:51 pm
Geez Guys, I am a mrs with the same mr as always, forever and a day, we have two kids… our relationships are seldom normal/perfect,, they are faced with a society that is on the sick side not to mention the impossiblity of home ownership etc, etc, bloody etc.
We have our son living with us, and the father son relationship is usually at strain, life itself is a total compromise between survival and relationships.
Both Men and Women WERE the backbone on which the childs identity grew and flourished, that partnership was the very example for relationship building, and it was rare to achieve near perfection, questioning is one of the best elements we can install with our kids, however constantly questioning each other surely is not the go. The breakdown of examples of good relationships is what society needs, and we we aint gunna get from no feminist.
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 1:24 pm
Haha,,, last line, obviously screwed as this is exactly what we are now faced with…. and I might add that F…n greed is suitably also to blame, what a screw up.
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 1:28 pm
@Mama The Father Son relationship is strained.
If you go back through the thread about the cult experience.
Then consider your son’s intergenerational relationship conflicting with that cult behavior.
That’s one hell of a way to play piggy in the middle with both ends throwing a ball at you.
Something saved him from the inevitable, so you must have done something right.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 1:34 pm
Well I guess all relationships have a cult element, we just have to be gentle and always have good intention, ans selflessness with its application.
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 1:50 pm
It’s purpose and intent that might be more important.
Retreating from the war zone and coming home wounded.
I’m not sure that Western Society has grasped the reality of what men individually are facing.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 2:14 pm
It is chilling to realise there are too many parents alone with mental problems bringing up their children, the children’s problems becoming societal stresses, child becomes adult and the cycle gets sicker.
I had six sisters and one brother, he did not make it, I have also lost two sisters, I am the only sister that has a normal marital family, for my parents it was hard to comprehend. My siblings tried other, other than family cults, addictions, absolute denials for so called ‘normal’ relationships, out of all of this we have between us many great really well adjusted kids, I do not even know how to explain, it is just magic…but now a new fear for their youngsters and I feel all I can do is hope that todays crazy society will leave them alone, we only have one another to help to be an example of what we think is right and good.
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 2:18 pm
159,, Boonie,,I do not think it has, but Men themselves are baffled and it is crossing over to all cultures,, this is why I worry about protecting the boys coming through.
I came across a Mother the other day, in a marriage an all,, but her pushing of non gender specific ideals for children of all under five was weird, no other way to put it.
The best non specific way to be is ‘just to let it be’, isnt it?
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 2:24 pm
I think we face a similar alienation conflict with what’s available at school’s.
We don’t see the screwed up kids coming out of school as being alienated nor do we understand their coping mechanism.
We only see the behavior we get out of them.
Comment by Boonie — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 2:31 pm
The recent shootings in America? of course the extremities used here with the ability to get hold of a gun..none the less, young men with nothin to lose?,, this is SOMe symptom!
The shockwaves they create might just have good reason behind them, not the act of who they affected of course, but what they did, the bomb in Their brain and why it was there, a cry, maybe they wanted to ask the question, WHO IS THE CRAZY ONE?
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 2:44 pm
#154 – I seem to be always called a feminist when I try to remain gender impartial.
I do admit guilt for hijacking this thread.
And I thank you for keeping me company, in doing so. 🙂
Comment by JustCurious — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 3:09 pm
“Those who exhibit curiosity about white nationalist talking points or express frustration with…feminists, anti-racism activists and “social justice warriors” are then escorted through a funnel of increasingly racist rhetoric,” wrote Megan Condis, a professor of communication at Texas Tech, in an op-ed for the New York Times.
you could also say the same for those young women who are curious about feminism being plummetted with a point of view from media and powers at be and confusion surrounding all our young around relationships.
So Men were made to brunt the extremes? They certainly have been forced into extremes through time.
I do think Men have always been necessary, more importantly needed, and I do believe they are now floundering with the lack of being needed, if this in turn is showing through because society is abandoning them, then this is where we need to look.
Authority told us when to get off the couch and take out the rubbish when that authority left us who was telling us what, and what if we were now having to tell our elders to get off the couch and take out the rubbish what would then we do.
Comment by mama — Sat 10th August 2019 @ 4:03 pm