Lundy Bancroft Seminar – re: Shaping our Radical Feminist Future
I was fortunate enough to receive free entrance to the workshop on Domestic Violence by Hamilton Abuse Intervention Project.
My day started with a map showing directions to the venue. OK, so all who know me well know I always get lost and some of you know how I end up far away and asking for directions from strangers on the side of the road. Well, strangers in the city is a funny thing because people know how to get there but are unsure how to describe the way. Anyhow, I finally arrived moments before morning tea.
Being prepared with 30 copies of over 100 pages of documentation proving women are more violent than men from Paul Catton, East Auckland Men’s Refuge, who made the most incredible 5 star meal for me when I picked up all his hard work and copying, I started my work; finding out who was who.
“Hello, who are you and what group are you from?” was the start of my awesome discussions. “Do you have something for male victims of domestic violence?” was my second question after I introduced myself and that I was involved with ‘Auckland Single Parent’s’ group.
Sooo, with the interest was the exchange of e-mail addresses and business cards.
Then it was back to the workshop and listening to an extreme American feminist man. Of course with the pep of my self esteem came my willingness to question with this wonderful opportunity.
Lundy (the feminist speaker from America) stated abusive men learn from the behaviours of their fathers. “What about the fatherless children coming from single parents”, I asked. Oh, gosh, first question and I was shut down by Lundy with the response single mothers leave abusive fathers. The room filled with nods and mutters of agreement. Then one woman raised her hand to state something in agreement with Lundy that relationship counselling was a bad idea.
Being slightly paranoid and brave at the same time I kept raising my hand as Lundy used what she said to compliment his own belief. Eventually he acknowledged me and I stated I wanted to respond to the woman who responded to me. I stated that it is hard for men and women who come from broken homes to make a relationship because they have no role models and that they needed to be shown how to work together. Lundy agreed with me that there needs to be some sort of prevention program to help men and women to have healthy relationships.
So then he gave a loooong example of a dysfunctional family where the man was bad for 2 days. I stated that the father was abusive to the mother but not to the children. That was a bad move having one of the members of HAIP at my table.
Anyhow, then came lunch. Mmmm, yummeeee. Yet there was ample time to make up for my errors by listening to others opinions and challenging them. All I can say is that there is interest in men. If there is a need, we have the resources available.
OK, so lunch ended and back into the workshop. Lundy was onto the subject on how to deal with male batterers.
First thing up was a must for consequences. Lundy said that DV must be treated as the worst crime imaginable. “They absolutely must go to prison for their crime”, he stated. And then he said this has been proven to be effective.
I was so shocked he said this that I didn’t even raise my hand but bluntly stated, “That is a really bad idea”. By now I have been watching women on all tables listening to this man and writing all the words he says.
He said a few words and then I stated, “You don’t know NZ prisons. There are gangs in there and they rape men in there”. I couldn’t help myself and I was so connected raising my hand was no longer an option.
Lundy acknowledged what I said and stated there needs to be some sort of humanity movement in prison and some sort of dealing with racism but he shrugged it off saying all this will take time.
Before I go on I want to share something else Lundy said about time while I was lost and missed part of the workshop. He stated that if all governments and all health facilities and police and CYS (child services) and women’s groups and all other community groups got involved in this, we should fix DV in 20 years. But….. since governments are driven by the economy, he thinks it will take about 100 years.
OMG, 100 years? What about millions of other possibilities of holding this back? Straight up, just from this I can tell you now family violence campaigns as men are perpetrators and women are victims is not going to work. If males are already fighting back what do you think they will be like in 100 years of females calling the shots to put them in prison?
Anyhow talking about prison and back to the workshop, female probation officers were also there and they were interested in this ’send them to prison’ idea. I approached them during the next break to remind them that they will be sending every woman who has abused their children to prison the same way. They just said, “Look at Singapore. They have heavy sentences and there is no violence on the streets”. How strange to hear the comparison when I know feminists are pushing for safe streets. So they want men in prison do they?
Well, then another group spoke up about the idea of men in prison saying that prison has programs for rapists and drug addicts. Oh, how Lundy liked that idea for it complimented his idea that you can’t make a man non violent in a batterers 16 week program. He say it takes years to help a man and that there is no measure to say one man is less violent than another. “What about the woman”, he said. He said it was impossible to tell slight from bad and criticised judges for thinking some cases should get a less sentence. He insisted all men should get the worst sentence. As bad as murder, he empathised.
OK, so now I must speak up again. “What about a men’s refuge” I say. Then I spoke of the idea from Tauranga women’s refuge where men can be sent to a refuge while women stay at home.
“I like that idea”, says Lundy “But we are not there and if we were there needs to be programs inside and such” he said. (not exact words but near enough)
I am not sure but I think I started waking the men up as they were now asking questions on how to deal with men and the situations they are in.
OK, next CYFs are targeted with Lundy saying men as batterers shouldn’t have parenting programs like women for they will use them to learn how to dominate their children. “In fact”, he said, “Men should not be given any ideas on how to make their children trust them or confide in them”.
Oh, gosh. Now CYF workers are suggesting changing their programs. “Oh, we didn’t know, We have been doing things wrong”, they said.
But Lundy is a fool. He kept on going on about holding men as bad yet he kept saying everyone needs to listen to the sweet innocent mother. It all came undone when Allison (I must say her name for she has done studies that I will be showing here when she e-mails me) stated that schools must contact CYF if a child confides in a teacher.
You see, Lundy has this idea that fathers are bad yet the mother in his eyes is abusing her children because a man made her do it. He kept saying to all of us that we must listen to the mother but not take away her children. That we must be intelligent and think to the depth of the situation.
The silly man doesn’t understand that no-one is allowed to make a decision on their own. What he doesn’t understand is that through his own lobby pushing to hold men accountable with no room to move, he is holding mothers also accountable to the same standard.
Lundy finished the day dogging the men’s movement and saying that men are not the ones being harmed in the FC but women are.
He described all moves from father’s in the FC as an abusive way for control and said that the only worthy cases for shared parenting don’t go to court.
Anyhow, I had a great day and made some wonderful connections.
In fact, I approached the ex head of women’s refuge to confess the work that I intend to do. I told her that I am going to stand up for the men’s side. She told me I should work for 6 months in a women’s refuge to understand their side. All I can say is that after our small discussion on the matter she realises I do not need to do that.
So it came down to her and the 2 girls she is taking care of which made her stand down and me with my 2 sons. As I explained my empathy is for anyone who suffers domestic violence. She says if I want help I will join them but I say they are going about it the wrong way.
The main thing is we each know where we stand. I had to be honest with her because that is what I am about. She said all was black and white for her the first 10 years of her work but she sees colour. We shared stories of men who shared their stories with us. I think we are on a level playing field.
Hey all, thanks for reading about my day. I didn’t give out the wonderful information Paul put so much time and energy into which was unfortunate yet maybe they are meant for something more special.
Thanks for the report Julie – you are certainly braver in speaking up than I would have been! I bet you didn’t change any minds though.
Lundy sounds as extreme as I suspected:
I guess this means that we shouldn’t expect much in the way of new fathering programmes over the next few years – even if official policy moves in this direction, the radical feminist gatekeepers will do their utmost to undermine and sabotage them. All in the best interests of children, of course.
The suggestion that males who respond violently in domestic disputes should be routinely framed for serious criminal offences and locked in prison seems calculated to increase the rate of domestic homicide if you ask me. People with nothing to loose are far more dangerous than those who can see a way forward.
Guess who stands to benefit if domestic violence statistics (against women) appear to keep getting worse?
Did they distribute a list of the organisations which attended this seminar?
I would recommend any men keep well away from “helping” agencies which expose their staff to this type of misandristic indoctrination.
Comment by JohnPotter — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 10:18 am
I think I may have led you astray. The meeting was about men and DV. Lundy wasn’t saying ‘good’ men shouldn’t have parenting programs but that men who are convicted of DV or considered violent should be given a different parenting program where they learn to respect their female partners and children and not how to bond in a way that could give them control.
I don’t know if this will spill over to all father parenting programs.
…..
No! But I have their details through asking. These people were all nice people yet the intention behind the meeting is to change policies and lobby to make things harder for fathers.
I just can’t believe what is going on. Even our school children programs have to be viewed that males have a superior place in society.
BTW, the younger males around the world think the females have a superior place in society.
There were a few that I have bonded well with who get the picture clearly and realise we need to care for both men and women to move forward.
Men under this scheme are purely there to help the women. There is no working together to help the men.
Comment by julie — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 11:23 am
In a discussion with a WINZ worker yesterday I asked about the posters they use in their offices for domestic violence. She stated that NZ WINZ tries to show posters that are gender neutral.
The new posters for famly violence in NZ show women and children as victims to male abusers and one poster of some men from religious groups with the caption saying they are heroes for defending women by standing up against men.
Our schools where our children spend their time learning will show posters similar because so many will complain otherwise, but in reality what they will be brainwashed to believe will be what this poster below states. (from the programs in the USA).
Comment by julie — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 11:48 am
I believe this may be Human Rights commission material. There is absolutely NO proof that either statement is true, In point of fact if the left hand statement were true, there would be no married females alive?
Even generalisms are lethal to be believed.
Comment by alastair — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 12:14 pm
I couldn’t agree more Julie.I wish we could just forget about gender when it comes to legislation and support agencies. For example take this particular person (leaving gender out of it for a minute). Lets call him/her “Jo”. Jo was routinely emotionally and physically abused by his/her spouse (Jak). Jak would punch Jo in the head, destroy Jaks property and insult, demean and degrade Jo to the point that Jo felt that he/she must deserve the abuse because Jak was so good with excuses and even better with his/her fists and degrading put downs. Jo would often have to wear sunglasses to hide the cuts and bruises caused by jewellery studded fists. Jo mentioned the situation to one of his/her colleagues who laughed and told him/her to harden up. There were no support agencies available to Jo due to a societal prejudice that discriminated against people of his/her type. Jo didn’t even bother going to the Police when he/she had finally had enough. He/she needed physical and emotional protection when retrieving some personal items from the house. Jo knew the Police would probably assist but the shame in having to ask them for help was too much to bear so Jo decided to run the gauntlet unaided.
Surely if there was equality between the genders it wouldn’t matter whether Joe or Jak were male or female. The fact is that one human being was being abused by another. Isn’t that enough? Well apparently not because in this case Jo was me (a bloke) and Jak was my ex wife. I don’t fit the stereotype of a battered man which only goes to prove that we should forget about stereotypes. I’m 6 ft 1, weigh 100 kilo’s and have been involved with martial arts all my life and could have crushed my wife like an ant if I chose to. Something that a lot of feminists forget is that some of us men actually love women and would rather take a few blows than risk reacting, knowing how messy things can get. I was brought up in an alcoholic family by a father who frequently bashed me and my mother and sisters. Did this create a cycle of abuse? No it didn’t. It made me determined that I would never bash a woman or a child because I have seen and felt the pain caused by a violent husband and father and I wasn’t going to become my father, and I didn’t. Having said that I loved my father dearly and I miss him. I know why he was the way he was and it’s way too detailed and tragic to discuss here. Suffice to say, access to support agencies could have helped him and my family significantly, if only something was available for him at the time. Isn’t it a bizarre world we live in when we always see males portrayed on TV ads as the perpetrators of domestic violence and women are always victims. I know all the statistics and far more women are killed by men in domestic violence situations than vice versa. But let’s get real here and acknowledge that physical and verbal violence is not just perpetrated by men against women and children. There are a vast number of female abusers whose activities are often unreported as they don’t fit the stereotype. If we are going to have women’s refuges then lets have a few male refuges to and also some support agencies that help both men and women cope with situations in non verbally and physically aggressive ways! Then, perhaps we will see a reduction in violence perpetrated by one human against another..
Comment by Had_Enough — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 12:30 pm
Lessons about wife beating at five: In the week Harriet Harman takes charge, yet another feminist initiative
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204359/In-week-Harriet-Harman-takes-charge-feminist-initiative.html#ixzz0NLKug2UM
Comment by julie — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 1:44 pm
OMG!!!! Those posters could hardly be more offensive!
Comment by Scott B — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 4:39 pm
It appears TVNZ have no idea about the recent Women’s Reguge advertisement run, that Hans was asking for the script. TVNZ wondered if it could have been run on TV3 only. It seems to have dissapeared. I have a short CD copy of the BNZ advertisement if anyone would like me to send it to them electronicaly and they could post it here to compare the matters. Unfortunately all three versions are presently lost to me where someone has stolen a bag from my possession.
Comment by Benjamin Easton — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 4:45 pm
Good article here about a recent university study in the US, revealing that 40% of reported rapes in a small metropolitan area were in fact false. The study defined ‘false rape’ as being those reports in which the accuser admits to lying and confesses her true motive. There’s a breakdown of motives given, and it’s a positive development that the comment is made that they see no reason to suppose that the figures are not indicative of the true situation nation-wide.
Nice to see academics finally addressing these formerly taboo subjects. I suspect once these initiatives start rolling in, the only news we’ll be hearing about Harriet Harman in the future will be like what we’ve just witnessed with Phillip Field.
Comment by rc — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 5:28 pm
May I extend my thanks to you for your help in the battle for equality. Your efforts don’t go unnoticed.
BTW; I’m just curious and obviously don’t know enough about this Lundy Bancroft. Does he have children himself ? Does/did he parent them ? If so, how ? Like I said.. just curious… Nothing on google brings up any relevant info on that side of him.
Comment by John (Doe;) — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 10:42 pm
Jools, I take my hat off to you. You did well and your report is excellent. You are a model for many of us.
Please, would you copy this – all of it – comments too – to the AM board. It will show many more just what is going on in NZ and how they are importing US agitprop purveyors to poison fine NZ minds.
I know what it is like in workshps and seminars where evryone and her dog wants to get a word in and you did well making your voice heard with pertinent questions.
And hats off to Paul too for his preparation of material.
Now…. next time take a ghetto-blaster and a selection of my pertinent podcasts with you (ok, the impertinent ones too ) to give everyone some lunchtime listening. Wire the ‘off’ button to the electricity to prevent anyone switching it off. 🙂
Fine gel you are m’dear.
Comment by amfortas — Wed 5th August 2009 @ 11:15 pm
Alistair, I am sorry for forgetting to mention the wonderful and time consuming work you did for this meeting (through your database) on abusive women in NZ,… on my post. I was and am extremely grateful.
Also Human Rights are behind this. So is the Families Commission.
Comment by julie — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 12:12 am
Good question John. I didn’t think to ask about his life. What a shame.
Comment by julie — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 12:15 am
Thanks Julie, not only my work though, acknowledgements to all (Yourself included) who sent me material. I am altering the copyright line from myself to the major mens internet group, Pauls-News.
Comment by alastair — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 8:08 am
Thank-you very much for your comment and sharing your story.
The only man at my table spoke to our group near the end saying it was his mother who beat him and his siblings. His father never laid a finger on them.
The ex head of the collective of women’s refuges spoke to me about the men she dealt with in Anger Management. She told of how she asked all the men in the group, “When did you witness your father beat your mother?”
One man who had not spoken the whole time in the program spoke up and told his story of how his father had his mother over a barrel with a screw driver to her throat. The man was 5 at the time and jumped on his father’s back.
The father with his son on his back stabbed the mother in the throat and ripped her open by driving the screw drive from the throat to the chest. He basically gutted her.
I know a man who can’t seem to stop being locked up and serving time after time in prison. His mother is a real nut case and she was sooooo abusive to him and his brother as they were growing up. His is a story you would only see through a very imaginative movie. She tortured them.
It is sad this happened to you.
Comment by julie — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 8:15 am
The question “When did you witness your father beat your mother?” is a bad one. It suggests an answer. I will accept the person asking it wanted to suggest prior knowledge as an encouragement for the learner to disclose an issue.
In my experience, I avoid suggesting an answer. The men I work with tend to be past masters of manipulation, discerning what I want to hear, then saying it. I think I would have asked “Could we discuss violence you have experienced” or “What toes violence mean to you” A good counsellor will be able to follow on from these leads to achieve a an outcome probably closer to reality and probably more theraputic to the client.
The “Anger Management” course is rarely attended by people “Wanting” to learn. It is almost inevitably resented, hence seemingly poor outcomes. Education and teaching is best practiced with a carrot – NEVER a stick!
Interesting to hear what those more qualified make of that statement!
Comment by alastair — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 9:31 am
Julie, you’ve forgotten the No. 1 rule of radical feminism: ALL men are bastards. We are all supposed to be “considered violent”.
Comment by JohnPotter — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 9:56 am
Hi Julie,
I agree in my family it was my mother that was the abuser but when my sisters and I look back it was because she was so fatigued from working 2x jobs to help our father support us and give us everything we needed and some of what we wanted. We never went without but we certainly paid for it in other ways. To look at my mum now you wouldn’t think butter would melt and she is fully forgiven by all but one of us. Will our children be brainwashed to be victims or abusers… only if WE allow them to. I didn’t become an abuser and I physically lived with physical and verbal abuse for the first 15 years of my life. Children need to be empowered and only WE their parents and other significant people in their lives can do this. There will be outside influences but if they know they are valued, cherished and deserve only good things in life there is no way they can become a victim or abuser unless they are a sociopath… then nothing helps!!!
Comment by Yvonne — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 5:34 pm
Video. You Tube.
Everyday Family Terrorism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th0yGBy73GA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fantimisandry%2Ecom%2Fmra%2Dyoutubers%2Fif%2Dmomma%2Daint%2Dhappy%2D20678%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
Amfortas, Paul Elam and Christian J show and tell of the damage done within families and society by intransigent people, in this instance Women, who are prepared to destroy their own families to get their own way.
Erin Pizzey documented the effects of showing the Truth about violent women, for which she received Feminist death threats.
Dr Eric Berne shows several ‘Games’ used including the ‘let’s you and him fight’ game so common today where cops and courts do the women’s dirty work for them that leaves children unprotected with fathers dispossessed.
Comment by amfortas — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 5:48 pm
Well, I waited, Jools, and took matters in hand.
http://antimisandry.com/campaigns-events/our-jools-puts-boot-21920.html#post164133
Comment by amfortas — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 6:11 pm
Your are so right John. There won’t be anything good being offered to men as long as radical feminism is alive and well in NZ.
Comment by julie — Thu 6th August 2009 @ 6:44 pm
We in the U.S. protested these billboards but DART went ahead with them anyway.
Comment by masculistman — Sat 15th August 2009 @ 10:44 am
Off topic: I haven’t been to this site for awhile. The last I heard of New Zealand is that the feminists have a stranglehold on the country more so than any other western country,besides the UK.
Comment by masculistman — Sat 15th August 2009 @ 10:49 am
That more or less is so, however due to the democratic system Our lesbian Prime Minister is now deposed. The writing had been on the wall for some time. With this time She (It?) organised a cushy job in the UN. (By her friends?)
Comment by alastair — Sat 15th August 2009 @ 12:56 pm
I corrected their typos in the images:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3976/boygirladvertisement.gif
Comment by SicKofNZ — Sat 15th August 2009 @ 1:00 pm
Men alive auckland rang them today as im being forced to attend one of there programs Im usually quite a mellow person but the staff member i spoke to really
ticked me off.. Its a very emotional subject and i feel the hole situation is unjust
and i told this so hole situation he then proceed to tell me i sound like i have a anger problem which pissed me off I mean like wow blow me away.. Of course i got wind up its an emotional and unjust subject what a prat.. I think this guy lives in a fantasy world were no one gets angry over anything they feel strong about.
Like hello anger is a normal human emotion just because the subject i was talking to this guy about was one of which I have strong feelings about does not mean i have a anger problem for god sake.. Just because this certain subject winds me up doesnt mean that i walk around all day every day angry about every day life..
I think about all the crap and voilents that goes on in this country today
and wonder how realistic is it to think that such programs are of any use what so ever. I mean like if you started acting like some poof were as nothing up sets ya
it would not be long before you get walked over. The worlds a tuff place at times
sometimes in some situations in life it would not be safe to act as if you had no anger what so ever in you…. I think these program providers need to get there heads out of there arses and look whats going on around them today in this country
Comment by Mike — Fri 4th September 2009 @ 3:43 pm
The Dompost have an article about “Victims” of domestic violence.
Anyone can post, plus letters of course.
You can find it at http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/politics/3313806/Survivors-speak-out-for-family-violence-reforms#comments
And the Article:
Domestic violence survivors have taken the rare step of speaking out to lobby for change, saying they are revictimised when they leave abusive relationships.
A group called It’s STILL not OK delivered a report to Prime Minister John Key and senior ministers suggesting practical changes to help people leave abusive relationships.
Spokeswomen for Social Development Minister Paula Bennett and Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia, who is chairwoman the Ministerial Committee on Family Violence, said they had received the report and were considering it.
“[Ms Bennett] is keen to give it some consideration because it comes from the experience of these people,” her spokeswoman said.
The Government has spent $12 million on a four-year “It’s not OK” campaign to raise awareness of family violence. But the group members said that, when they left abusive relationships, they faced many challenges — protection orders, financial hardship, custody battles, health problems, court cases and safety concerns — that could be easily removed.
“They are spending all this money saying they want us to leave, but then when we do, there’s no support,” group spokeswoman Lisa Close said.
Advocate groups and researchers had called for change for years, “yet it seems to fall on deaf ears”.
Ruth Herbert, from the Roundtable for Domestic Violence, said it could be a “world first” that victims were speaking out in a group and said it was impossible to ignore their suggestions.
“They’re speaking directly. You just can’t deny the personal experiences that they’re speaking of.
“I left a very abusive relationship in 1983, that’s 27 years ago. The only thing that surprises me was that the struggle that I had then is echoed by the struggle that these women are having now. What progress have we made? I was just astounded.”
She said funding for existing support services was “woefully” inadequate. “We need a range, there’s no one-size-fits-all.”
Women’s Refuge said the group’s paper was “ground-breaking”. “This is a powerful and significant document because it speaks directly from survivors’ experiences. The realities documented by this group are very consistent with what Women’s Refuge sees every day,” Kaiwhakahaere Denise Reynolds said. “The experiences of survivors must be heard.”
[email protected]
Comment by Alastair — Thu 11th February 2010 @ 8:53 am
Hi Alastair, I’ve been following the posts made on this story and noticed you’d read the ‘report’. Would you be so kind as to provide a link to that report please? I have searched but have been unsuccessful locating it so far.
Comment by SicKofNZ — Fri 12th February 2010 @ 10:57 am
Reply to Masculistman
……….I thought the same as you Masculistman….But there is another Country that I been reading about, and this is just my humble opinion… Its even worse then New Zealand concerning ‘The Feminist stranglehold’ and that Country is Canada …..
Kind regards John Dutchie
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 12th February 2010 @ 11:11 am
It was sent to me directly by a mutual friend. A copy is in the Pauls News files area, but you may not be able to access these.
Comment by Alastair — Fri 12th February 2010 @ 11:38 am
Thanks, I’ll wait until it is publicly available then.
Comment by SicKofNZ — Fri 12th February 2010 @ 1:29 pm