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Concerned About Men Meeting – Saturday 3rd November

Filed under: Events,General — Audi Alteram Partem @ 11:35 pm Fri 21st September 2018

I’m new to this forum but on looking through past threads the expression “couldn’t organise a piss-up in a brewery” comes to mind. Last year there was supposed to be a meeting in Auckland on the 4 November about which there were many, many, many comments but as I understand it no action.

So… There will be a meeting of people concerned about men. It will start with lunch being served at 1pm on Saturday the 3rd of November 2018. There will be no alcohol at lunch. At 2pm the meeting will commence and the attendees will decide how formal the meeting will be and who (if anyone) to appoint as chair and scribe. The meeting will focus on what actions we can take to mitigate or eliminate harms being foisted on men by widely held but erroneous beliefs about men. It will be about strategy and action.

It will not be a talk-fest. At the meeting it will be decided how often to meet again. These meetings will be regular (say the first Saturday of every second month) and they will grow in popularity. After the meeting closes at 4pm, drinks will be served and we can network informally. At 5pm you go home. This is not a boozy party.

Please RSVP by no later than 5 October 2018 to this thread if you or your interested associates are going to attend and advise if you have any special dietary requirements. I will arrange the venue once I know the numbers attending. The cost to you for lunch, venue hire and post meeting drinks will be zero. I will pay for this initial meeting because human life is more important to me than money. Donations to offset my expenses will be accepted but not expected.

You have to give it to the feminists. They are damn good at organising themselves. Let’s show them what we can do when we put aside our petty differences and work together to save men’s lives.


  1. (factually incorrect and misleading – edited out)
    This carries on from the best of the old UoF and Men’s Centre traditions. That is close to my heart.
    Judgement is critical to moving forward successfully. For that reason, I suggest that prospective attendees be sorted out into two groups, using a sanity test.
    The insane can meet as you suggest so wisely.
    I and the other sanes can meet in a nearby pub and drown our sorrows and frustrations in pool, arguments that go nowhere and fist-fighting, until broken up by the police or we run out of money.
    Sanity Test:
    Insane – can tie their own bootlaces without help, while being watched
    Sanes – spin out when wrongfully deprived of access to our own children.
    Onward and Forward…..

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Sat 22nd September 2018 @ 3:00 pm

  2. My Dear Murray,

    I’ll take the “Darling” in the spirit of bonhomie that you no doubt intended. However, as to me being Downunder, I must concur with Downunder himself and assert that you are quite incorrect in suggesting that he and I are one in the same. Considering that he and I were somewhat at loggerheads we probably both take some offence at the suggestion.

    I do however applaud your division of people into categories of sane and insane and my strong preference would be for the insane to stay away from the proposed meeting. I’ll adopt some entirely arbitrary criteria for sanity and suggest the the following sorts of people stay away:

    1) Those who don’t really care about men’s rights.
    2) Those who want to use the issue of men’s rights to… umm… grind another axe!
    3) Those who are incapable of using reasoned argument.
    4) Haters of other people.
    5) Moaners who just want to moan and who don’t wish to take action to save men’s lives.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sat 22nd September 2018 @ 3:33 pm

  3. “You have to give it to the feminists. They are damn good at organising themselves.”

    Not sure about NZ but in Australia feminists were gifted a great deal of money in the nineties and became very well networked as a consequence.

    The first “Personal Safety Survey” in the early nineties was subjected to so much political interference that several senior Bureau of Statistics officers resigned. The Keating govt wanted to create a stream of funding for womens’/feminist groups but this would have breached anti discrimination laws. The ABS survey was effectively doctored to create a justification for such funding. It spawned the “Australia Says NO to Violence Against Women” campaign and much of what followed.

    Those events are part of the reason Australia is behind most of the western world in it’s attitudes, particularly towards male victims.

    Comment by gwallan — Sat 22nd September 2018 @ 3:57 pm

  4. 3, gwallan. It is very surprising when you start to look at networks of women, take the law summit recently, here in NZ, some of the speakers there, were not all, as I expected,,but one of eerie tone was university/justice and reports to the government…

    Comment by mama — Sat 22nd September 2018 @ 6:30 pm

  5. #3 and #4 I could not agree more. That’s why I want us to get organised and oppose this insidious oppression.

    But… So far only Murray has signed up to do anything about it… and that is to get wasted at the pub down the road! Go you Murray!

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sat 22nd September 2018 @ 6:43 pm

  6. On WHAT to organise should be made clear, kickstart is necessary , upfront, media an all, this will give back to the effort needed to carry on.

    Comment by mama — Sat 22nd September 2018 @ 6:59 pm

  7. The proposed meeting for 4th November was always a piss-take that some people chose to take seriously. MoMA was volunteered by Downunder to organize it but this appeared to be attempted humour, ridicule, insult or all three.

    Regarding the currently proposed meeting, where is it planned to be held?

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Sat 22nd September 2018 @ 10:15 pm

  8. This meeting is real and it is going to happen. It is not a piss-take of any sort.

    As noted in the original post: “The meeting will focus on what actions we can take to mitigate or eliminate harms being foisted on men by widely held but erroneous beliefs about men.” How these erroneous beliefs cause considerable harm to women will be acknowledged and likely form part of a public relations strategy.

    Also as noted in the original post: “I will arrange the venue once I know the numbers attending.” The venue will be in Auckland and will be a private room in a restaurant or conference facility.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 23rd September 2018 @ 6:56 am

  9. @8: Yes, there was no implication intended that your proposed meeting was not genuine.

    Of course, we did have a meeting, the Men’s Summit conference earlier this year, that was quite well attended. Then there was the more recent conference in Wellington organized by Kidz Need Dadz (why do people do that, swap the ‘s’ for a ‘z’?) that was also quite well attended and featured a Commissioner for Children who preferred simplistic male-bashing to any real consideration of the issues.

    What tends to happen is that those interested in men’s issues meet from time to time, discuss and vent, then a few individuals follow up with action. Submissions to and appearances before select committees, commissions of inquiry and other influential groups, and letters to politicians and editors, based as you recommend on facts and reasoned argument, have been the only forms of significant influence.

    Attempts to coordinate or to lead group action were seldom successful. During the 90’s that happened a bit more but some overly aggressive protesting probably put men further back behind the start line even though some publicity was generated at least. Otherwise, news media have been almost resolute in ensuring men’s concerns don’t get aired. Now that would be a huge help, to find any significant news organization that takes up men’s issues, provides men’s perspectives or consults men’s movement spokespeople to add some comment to stories impacting on men.

    We welcome further initiatives such as your proposed meeting and we may well send a representative. However, we would recommend against an attitude that’s coming through of ‘You’re all doing nothing worthwhile and doing it all wrong but I know better’. For example, the “couldn’t organize a piss-up in a brewery” comment was disrespectful to at least the two conferences described above in 2018 that were very well organized, not to mention the many other good meetings that have been held through the years, as opposed to Downunder’s piss-take announcement of a bogus meeting that you chose to focus on.

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Sun 23rd September 2018 @ 8:36 am

  10. #9,,, thankyou, I wanted to say that but did not want to be the labeled the ‘mama’.

    One of the stand out things for me from the last ( WELL.) conference was Judge BeCroft saying he did not see many men/fathers attending youth court for their children/generally sons I’m sure.

    This said to me, that he, and others, do not realise what has been happening in the ‘Father’s’ lives in behind the scenes.

    Alienation from the children is a massive problem.

    Recently Downunder posted the link to a Podcast of a visiting guy from Canada, much can be taken by his words, taken and used.

    Comment by mama — Sun 23rd September 2018 @ 8:57 am

  11. BeCroft also said he was “unaware’ of the wide use of PURR-JURY.

    Comment by mama — Sun 23rd September 2018 @ 9:01 am

  12. Recently Downunder posted the link to a Podcast of a visiting guy from Canada, much can be taken by his words, taken and used

    I didn’t post that because I thought it was invaluable to resolving issues.

    A long time back when Warren Farrell was here promoting his books he had a American woman (lawyer)
    with him. (The name escapes me at the moment)

    For those that were paying attention, she was the one was worth listening to …

    … and from memory there were about 5 politicians in the room that night too.

    You can’t say we weren’t told way back then.

    Comment by Downunder — Sun 23rd September 2018 @ 9:32 am

  13. The Canadian had worthwhile observations though., worth a listen for those going through madness brought on by the current system…hey, solace, where ever can be gotten becomes a necessity some times.

    Comment by mama — Sun 23rd September 2018 @ 10:09 am

  14. 1) Those who don’t really care about men’s rights.

    Define “Care”

    2) Those who want to use the issue of men’s rights to… umm… grind another axe!

    Is that not all of us? are we not all trying to regain some form of sanity ( our axes – or sharp minds)?

    From Uncle Bob –
    (If you are the big tree
    We are the small axe
    Sharpened to cut you down (well sharp)
    Ready to cut you down)

    3) Those who are incapable of using reasoned argument.

    See (2) – that is a high and mighty expectation from people whom have been lobotomized, eviscerated, and persecuted for not using their own hand to hold their innards in.

    4) Haters of other people.

    The system is made of people – the ones that say, “sorry but it is my job to screw you raw and use your every scream to prosecute you for disturbing the peace.”

    5) Moaners who just want to moan and who don’t wish to take action to save men’s lives.

    A moaner that does not moan is a fraud. We need moaners – big time moaners…. people that can moan so loud the universe will stop and listen.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 9:56 am

  15. @listen-to-the_other-side

    Your arbitrary sanity test will ensure you will have the most reasonable people effectively dragging down your every effort into divisive and wasteful argument.

    I applaud your effort and willingness to set this up and I have been decrying our lack of united purposeful and positive action for quite some time. I admire you for your input. It is sorely needed.

    I would however suggest you liaise with people over here that have already undertaken such efforts. Perhaps get their input first as to what worked, what did not and why most efforts have failed.

    This can be done here and maybe consensus reached as to a proper agenda before a meet.

    I find that meeting in Auckland and Wellington is not the best option for most of us as we may be rural and the time and commitment it takes to be able to attend may be overridden by our current indigent financial state (extensive lawyers bills over many years, child support and many other reasons confining us to walking wallets).

    It is therefore of high importance that whatever is done is decentralized with little committees hopefully in every single community in NZ gathering momentum as we go.

    Basically the needs are of a small enterprises with satellites everywhere in this country and in every sector, agency and social class.


    Anyone or anybody involved cannot be paid an income – it must be volonteer based and any funding received must and will be used for the cause and for the people needing it. But those organizing it and managing it as well as running it must not be paid – perhaps a stipend but no more. (give retirees something to do and create income for those young ones undergoing abuse by giving them labour)

    WE must also get on board the people that can help us make changes so former/active judges, cops, lawyers, teachers, principals, members of parliament, cyfs and all members of society should, must be included and information gathered from those agencies and a form of consultation and collaboration put in place so that better policies can be implemented for all members of society as opposed to empowering some members against the others.

    SO far we have done a god job at alienating ourselves from those people. Education is key.

    Everyone is waking up. May be called feminism but everyone is affected.

    Effectively, what you are trying to achieve will only succeed if all stratas of society are involved and represented, come together and work together.

    Essentially, without social change the politicians will never recognize it. I believe our jobs as forerunners is to show the extensive damage that is being done to the NEW ZEALAND Family.

    Everyone looses.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 10:26 am

  16. One thing we must be aware of is a lot of the policies and agendas are foreign.
    Human right commission, woman emancipation, children’s rights, Domestic violence ….

    all these are policies are not local. They are all from the UN.

    And yes there are billions put into it…

    Resolutions are passed at the UN level, signatories vote and when it is passed, all countries ratify it by incorporating them in their local laws.

    Essentially that is what men internationally are up against.

    It is not an assault on men but on families.

    Men are just the scape goats.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 10:34 am

  17. Currently, I have been amazed by Jacinda Arden stance with the minister that has been recently demoted.

    Transparency is key and it seems we might be able to have a society where the government exists for the people to guarantee their rights and protect them from indignity and iniquity.

    Ultimately we need to be able to stop our representatives from abusing us and our resources by insisting on transparency and accountability.

    Hopefully, our society will be if successful; the only one in the modern world where anyone in government with a minister portfolio will not be paid and if paid, minimally as a service to the people.

    And once again NZ will be a world leader in social changes.

    It’s a big task I know… but unless we can see the big picture; we will be just like doctors dealing with symptoms rather than causes. Victim of medicine that create more/new illnesses.

    The NZ family has cancer. THE United Nation is another cancer. Our politicians as we know them, another cancer. And our police, worse of all, is a gang of criminals. An old boys network looking after its own only and using every trick in the book to boost their statistics.

    Our judges, sadly, have their hands tied by the laws that are being passed by elected members whom are not judges nor lawyers and have no understanding of the ramifications and disastrous social impact of their vote, stances and positions.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 11:14 am

  18. #12 Dear Downunder (Mark 1)

    I am intrigued by your comment. I hope that details come back to you and you share them.

    A long time back when Warren Farrell was here promoting his books he had a American woman (lawyer)
    with him. (The name escapes me at the moment)
    For those that were paying attention, she was the one was worth listening to …
    … and from memory there were about 5 politicians in the room that night too.

    In particular, why was the lady so much worth listening to?
    If possible, her name?

    #3 Gwallan, your comments about changes in funding to women’s groups are very important. Most internal criticism of men’s groups focusses on immediately successful outcomes and ignores the resources behind those successes.
    Feminists spent a couple of generations or more in the wilderness, with very little “success” at all. Maybe funding has now gone to excess. As funding increased, their efficiency or success per cost, has dropped disastrously. That is human, I am not really criticising them.
    Remember Owen Glenn’s donations to women’s groups, that were going to sort out domestic violence throughout NZ in one go. Astonishingly little value was obtained, even with several $millions put in.
    A lot of feminist work is out of touch with what the population of women want from their own lives.
    Back to us..
    I would suggest that developing teamwork is valuable.
    Many campaigns contribute to public and politician awareness and understanding of issues, thus have value far above what seems apparent at the time.
    Recently, available resources for the men’s movement have been very small, yet there is still a moderate amount of fairly well focused energy. Not highly publicly visible, but still effective at developing the movement.
    Judged realistically, that is fairly good performance.
    We need to be careful that our efforts are in fact targeted to meet the needs of the wider population of men.
    Good cop, bad cop. The rabid arms help the moderate arms to get traction and be listened to. So even if there are some obvious losses due to rabidity, I suggest that the long term value is still very positive.
    Listening to all sides is essential, to either attacking “them” or working with “them”. I guess a few deviants enjoy relations with “the other side”. Fraternising doesn’t make for good wars and often got the death penalty. Maybe fraternisation works best if we want to end up working with “The Enemy”?
    But Audi Alteram Partem,
    I just cannot abide by you naming yourself after an elitist motor vehicle. Humble motorbikes maybe, but not expensive cars. It reeks of losing touch. Let them drive Audis…..
    I need to go and get shrunk back to one person again….
    Love and kisses and lets fight like bastards. I am sure we are heading in the right direction.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 12:36 pm

  19. JP may be able to link you to the archive but otherwise Warren’s email is available on line.

    At that time, and remembering that 12 Family Court judges had been shot, and that was just in California, when she said, “You are going to regret this,” I do believe she had the benefit of hindsight.

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 1:12 pm

  20. @Murray Bacon

    Hi Murray . You made my day by saying ” But Audi Alteram Partem,
    I just cannot abide by you naming yourself after an elitist motor vehicle. Humble motorbikes maybe, but not expensive cars. It reeks of losing touch. Let them drive Audis…..

    You really made me laughing . Please read the following :

    The company name ( AUDI) is based on the Latin translation of the surname of the founder, August Horch. “Horch”, meaning “listen” in German, becomes “audi” in Latin. The four rings of the Audi logo each represent one of four car companies that banded together to create Audi’s predecessor company, Auto Union.

    What the Audi alterem partem” wanted to point out by choosing his nick name is paying atentione ot one of the oldest legal terms : Hear the other party story ” I beleive he choose that nick to highlight the fact that men’s stories are never heard in the Family Court or the Police for that matter.

    It has nothing to do with cars the way you saw it .Nothing at all

    AS you might know around 70% of English words derived from latin .

    Comment by Tony — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 1:48 pm

  21. Fuill support for Audi alterem partem

    Comment by george simonovski — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 1:51 pm

  22. #20 Dear Tony, thank you for your help. I should have thought of that.
    It proves that we can achieve more by teamwork and infighting, than we ever could on our own.
    I will check things with Wikipedia more often in the futurae.
    Jeese, MurrayBacon you’re a wanker……..

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 2:02 pm

  23. Thanks for the laughter you all.
    What a great site for insane people.

    From now on, instead of telling my children “listen!”

    I will be yelling “AUDI” “audi, junior!”

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 2:46 pm

  24. I apologise for trolling under the name Tony. I project my multiples onto other people too, though I hope you haven’t noticed? I am sure I’m not the only one… Only the paranoids really know…
    Leaving aside my problem, try to get yourself together long enough to have a good fight and do something worthwhile.
    I’m telling you, fighting yourself isn’t really fun.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 4:02 pm

  25. I was under the impression you had resolved this issue Murray, but obviously the voices haven’t.

    I am the troll.
    At least I thought I was (the only), but I am beginning to wonder if there are others too?
    I have no pride in that, I just think trolls are fuckwits. As stupid as the thieves that we should be trying to do something about.

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 4:31 pm

  26. >>>>>>do something about

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 5:04 pm

  27. Hello to you all.

    Rather than address the multitude of comments individually, I thought that I might make some general points.

    Firstly an important part of my biography. Twice in my life I have had to face down suicidal ideation. Both times it was precipitated by man-hating feminists oppressing me and denying my basic human dignity. The first time the feminist who did that to me was a man. The second time it was done by a large group of female feminists who hold positions of considerable responsibility / power in our society and they conspired to deny me my rights and treat me like scum for no reason than because I am a man. I have first hand experience in knowing what it is like to be “lobotomised” and “eviscerated” and relentlessly “persecuted”. As I started to heal I was seething with anger. You may find the next thing I am going to say hard to hear… but now I forgive them. I categorically and unreservedly forgive the people who almost killed me with their ignorance and their contempt.

    Forgiveness is a stage in our healing. Forgiveness though is not excusing or accepting. I couldn’t be more determined to ensure that this doesn’t happen to other men. (Or women for that matter. Women who suffer from serious psychological issues that lead them to abuse their partner find it almost impossible to get help from a feminist dominated counselling industry. These women get told to dump the man and then everything will be okay. But of course it is not at all okay because the man is not the problem. Some of these women end up killing themselves!) And btw 475 men killed themselves in New Zealand last year.

    To make a difference I suggest that we need understanding, then focus and then action.

    Germans are not bad people. But Germans murdered 6 million Jews! In simple terms what happened in Nazi Germany is that our innate human sense of in-group bias was whipped up to extreme levels by relentless propaganda of grievance and blame. This is a human syndrome that has been repeated throughout history.

    Feminists are not bad people anymore than the German people are bad. They started off with a fair and reasonable sense of grievance against men and by exactly the same processes as what happened in Germany or Rwanda etc. etc. etc, that initially rightful sense of grievance has been whipped up to extremely harmful levels.

    The dictionary definition of feminism is the seeking of political, cultural and financial equality with men. There is nothing wrong with that! People who seek that are the friends of men’s rights activists, not the enemy. We are seeking exactly the same thing. We both don’t want there to be privileges or the denial of rights or opportunities on the basis of gender. I personally know feminists who believe in equality, and a high profile example of such a feminist is Christina Hoff Sommers.

    Now you all (and I) know by bitter experience that the majority of contemporary feminists don’t care about equality in the least. They are seeking privilege. But attacking “feminism” is a public relations disaster because it is seen as an attack on women’s rights to equality. If you stop and think about it for a moment, it is not the dictionary definition of feminism that most of us are opposed to. It is not equality we dislike. It is inequality.

    In just the last few days I have heard you bring up concerns about: the family, the United Nations, the Police, the Courts, the Labour party, Jacinda Ardern, the Human Rights Commission, political transparency, international conspiracies, the funding of political causes, The Act Party, the National Party, etc. etc. etc. We are never going to agree about those things! But we don’t need to! Those things will divide us and thus make us impotent in bringing about change that will save men’s lives and women’s lives. Join another group to fight your corner on those beliefs. If we are to unite we must accept diversity of opinion about other matters (aka axes to grind). Like a surgeon cutting out cancer, we need to be able to distinguish the cancer of denial of Men’s Rights and leave behind the other tissues (I mean issues 🙂

    If you want to align yourself with the Act Party then you will, at best, get the same level of support as what Act does. If you want to treat the Labour Party with contempt, then don’t expect any of them to support the issues of Men’s Rights. If want to call the Police a gang of criminals then don’t expect hardly anyone to support you, let alone the Police themselves when they turn up to a domestic violence incident with a male victim. If you want us to unify in fighting for men’s rights then focus on men’s rights exclusively – and simply shut-up about your personal hobby-horse crusade that you (perhaps) mistakenly think is intrinsically linked to men’s rights.

    Moaning is important and it is important for the plaintiff voices of wounded men to be heard. I am fighting for those wounded men and I’m looking for some good men and good women to fight alongside. But to save those badly wounded men (and women) I need people who are strong to fight with. You wouldn’t go to war with an army of invalids and we can’t win this war with soldiers who are so wounded that they can’t yet think straight. Wounded people will make comments like “125 years of feminist stupidity” and while some of you are nodding in assent the rest of the world will see us as a bunch of moronic misogynists and resolve to never listen to that bunch of dick-heads ever again.

    You want an agenda? I’ve already given you the agenda for the first meeting – “The meeting will focus on what actions we can take to mitigate or eliminate harms being foisted on men by widely held but erroneous beliefs about men. It will be about strategy and action.”
    Erroneous beliefs like:
    The falsification of statistics on intimate partner abuse.
    The implication that the wage gap is a form of discrimination rather than a free choice.
    The lack of women on boards is harming society whereas the lack of male teachers is not.
    Rape culture exists in New Zealand society.
    Patriarchy is alive and well in contemporary New Zealand society.

    Changing public opinion about these sorts of erroneous beliefs will mean that feminists will more and more often get called-out when they engage in hate speech against men. When hate speech against men is frowned upon then hate actions against men will be starved of oxygen.
    Changing public opinion is a long hard struggle. I appreciate that many of you are tired and cynical, but I’m not giving up!

    Anyone want to join me at 1pm on Saturday 3 November? I’m going to carry on fighting regardless, but it would be good to have some help.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 5:25 pm

  28. Old proverb – The old man under the tree can see further than the young man on the top branch.

    DOwnunder, MOMa and Murray have been at it since even before the German invaded Poland.

    They are the old men under the tress whose experience extend further than our young sights can reach.

    Their contribution is invaluable and it would be a pity for this train to leave without any of them on board.

    I wonder if we could find someone whom can facilitate transport and carpool to the venue.

    Perhaps anyone in any specific location willing to attend should give heads up and let us know whether they are attending and how many places they have for the trip.

    As far as your agenda, I think it a bit light and vague.

    It is already accepted and known fact that all the issues you listed are daily and common misrepresentations made by anyone and anyone wanting to disseminate hate and division among the populace. Or use it to get funding on the back of taxpayers (which makes me wonder what is the percentage of taxpayers gender?)

    I was hoping for something of deeper substance like
    -Dealing with courts when the dices are stacked against you
    -Knowing your rights vis a vis the police when they try to steal your rights
    -Avoiding lawyers when dealing with Family Courts
    -Removing Cyfs from one’s life permanently
    -How to find, understand and interpret laws that affect you and protect yourself from abuse as a man?
    -Our children’s education (the missing books)[finance, civics, law]
    -reading in between the words of politicians
    -the family as a unit (how to restore and protect from interlopers)
    -Laws in general – how to lobby for changes that are beneficial to society?
    -Cyfs – how to make a cyfs worker accountable for their action?
    – How to make a police officer accountable for their action?
    -How do we get the government to work for us instead of against us?

    I think everyone already has a PHD in bullshit here. and if we have no earned it on the bench it’s simply because because the degree was written on a parchment made of the skin off our backs.

    This is what I find missing always. Everyone talks and talks and talks and talks and talks and talks but no one tells you, this is what you must do.

    Frankly educating feminists against erroneous beliefs r even engaging in debates is simply a waste of time.

    Like someone said, fighting a pig ensures you get dirty and he enjoys it.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 8:55 pm

  29. Dear Audi Alteram Partem, generally I like your spirit of tolerance and inclusion, eg comments about forgiveness. Your comments about political parties, I largely agree with.

    If you want us to unify in fighting for men’s rights then focus on men’s rights exclusively – and simply shut-up about your personal hobby-horse crusade that you (perhaps) mistakenly think is intrinsically linked to men’s rights.

    This seems like cutting down to the most important, basic issues. But it isn’t that simple, as the important issues cover such a wide range of human issues, Government organisations and legislation. It isn’t as simple as pointing out a short list of “errors” in policy. Those errors have been pointed out many times through many years, but to little avail.
    As Karen Straughan pointed out in her speech at the 2017 Men’s Rights Conference Gold Coast, the women’s movement has succeeded with simplified slogans that are self evidently correct and have emotional appeal.
    Countering these simplified slogans requires detailed policy analysis and complex understanding and then communicated through emotionally savvy messages. This cannot be done in 120 seconds for a typical media sound bite.
    So Mr. Audi, I don’t think that your nice sounding simplifications are going to fly at all?
    You suggest to focus solely on men’s rights, as you see them and to go it alone without seeking policies capable of a broad range of support. Isn’t that concept dooming your proposal to the same degree of success that we have had in the last 40 years?
    I apologise for making it sound like hard work – it is hard work. Bevin will tell you that!
    JustCurious’s ideas are more oriented to bringing together our collective experience and making it accessible to the people who follow. That is something well within the resources that we have. No guarantee of black and white success, unfortunately.
    But the barrier here is in persuading our friends to share their experiences, in an open and constructive manner.
    Your own use of a pseudonym leaves me worried about your own ability to commit to anything more serious than humour?

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 9:55 pm

  30. Thanks for your response JustCurious.

    Are you the first person to actually accept the invite to the meeting?

    I have previously spoken with Murray and Hans and Kerry. They and their ilk are all most welcome. Downunder would need to disavow the misogyny that he (or she if she is a feminist troll) is displaying before I would think he/she would make for a suitable attendee.

    Just FYI – I am not a young man and I have earned my stripes in the trenches. As a self-represented litigant I have won a Judicial Review against a feminist group despite the judge being a declared feminist. When they appealed I won in the Court of Appeal. Currently I am taking a feminist High Court Judge to the Court of Appeal for recusal for displaying bias against men. My case is so strong that the opposing party have submitted that they are not opposing my application for recusal. I currently have proceedings in the High Court seeking a total of $1.9M in damages from two feminist groups who are discriminating against me because I am a man. More actions are being planned. Have a look at how effective the Southern Poverty Law Centre was at virtually destroying the KKK by taking them to Court and winning huge damages claims. Hate groups can be beaten in court. Discrimination is illegal in NZ.

    People can win debates against feminists. I have converted a few in my time and the Red Pill documentary shows how possible and effective this can be. But, if you read my posts you will see I am not advocating fighting directly against feminists. I am intending to win the hearts and minds of ordinary New Zealanders.

    Looking after specific men who are suffering by providing good legal and practical advice is I agree a noble pursuit and something we should be doing. [I personally though know nothing about the Family Court or dealing with the Police. All my proceedings have been Civil matters in the High Court or above.] However, winning skirmishes will not stop the onslaught of hoards of man-hating feminists. The big picture (and it is not I suggest a light-weight picture) is that this is a propaganda war and we need to decisively win that war not just a few battles along the way.

    I’m also reasonably well off. If anyone needs assistance with transport arrangements I’m happy to help.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 10:30 pm

  31. Hi Murray,

    You may remember me now that I have provided more bio?

    My pseudonym is in part to protect me because some matters may be considered sub judice and to protect vulnerable members of my family.

    My “simplifications” are in reality complex nuances. You think they won’t fly. Well… I will respect the wisdom of more experienced folk… but frankly your efforts thus far have made hardly a dent in the man-hating feminist juggernaut that seems to be winning all the battles. Is it time for the old guard to make room for some fresh ideas?

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 10:53 pm

  32. I EMAILed my acceptance on Saturday. But obviously I sent it to the wrong person!!
    That being so, I am less keen until our Audi friend shows his hand to us/me.
    Sorry about my failure to communicate directly and clearly…….I failed the teamwork test.
    “Winning skirmishes” is quite important when our children are the prize at stake.
    I would guess that the majority of men are frustrated by the familycaught$, more than by mythical feminists floating around in higher caught$.
    So we seem to have Audi wanting action in one arena and fathers wanting supports and assistance relevant to familycaught$ or CYFs (ignoring cosmetic name changes). We seem to have two separate campaigns, that will have to be fought separately.
    I have that splitting feeling again…..
    I agree that coordinated legal campaigns can be amazingly effective.
    Doing this requires teamwork and good mental health, which some of us spectacularly don’t have.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 10:54 pm

  33. Jeez Murray. Stop talking in riddles. You are starting to sound like Downunder!

    What hand do you want me to show?

    There are no separate campaigns. I repeat no separate campaigns! When you recover from your current bout of dissociation let all your personas know.

    The feminists that I am fighting against are the same ones that are causing other men grief in the Family Court. I’d provide a list of names if I didn’t want to spend the rest of my life defending defamation suits.

    PS: I genuinely like you Murray – I have a soft spot for crazy people.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Mon 24th September 2018 @ 11:44 pm

  34. So far, I don’t see how a few defamation suits against a few feminists, successful or unsuccessful, will have much impact onto familycaught$ cases?
    The vast majority of men are negatively impacted by familycaught$. Their children are impacted even more seriously. I suggest that quite a few mothers are harmed in familycaught$ too. We need to work together.
    I am not saying that you won’t succeed in your cases. How could I, as I know nothing about the details? But I am suggesting that the problems faced by most men, are unlikely to be helped by defamation suits?
    Sure, some feminists make some stupid claims. Are we any different? Problems arise after poor quality decisions made by politicians and more commonly judges. These people are our problem.
    As suggested by others above, accountability needs to actually work.
    Feminists have made huge contributions to our society. As a whole, they have contributed more value than harm. Why paint them as the enemy?
    These are pretty much my priorities:

    -the family as a unit (how to restore and protect from interlopers)
    -Laws in general – how to lobby for changes that are beneficial to society?
    -Cyfs – how to make a cyfs worker accountable for their action?
    – How to make a police officer accountable for their action?
    -How do we get the government to work for us instead of against us?

    Thanks to JustCurious #28 for this list.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 8:07 am

  35. I’m intending to come to this meeting. I think the stated intentions align closely with the MENZ mission.

    I had hoped that Downunder’s proposed meeting in November last year would go ahead and that it might lead to regular meet-ups, even if it is just catching up with a few old faces.

    The commenters in this thread represent a considerable wealth of experience when it comes to men’s activism in NZ. I think we have to agree that we’ve got more knowledge about what doesn’t work than what does.

    I suggest that a 2-hour meeting which starts by negotiating “process” is unlikely to achieve much.

    A dozen or so attendees who each speak for just a few minutes will use up an hour. I recommend an assertive and focussed chairman be appointed in advance.

    @ Audi Alteram Partem says:

    The big picture … is that this is a propaganda war and we need to decisively win that war not just a few battles along the way.

    This is pretty much how I see things.

    But winning a propaganda war is a big ask – and without substantial funding we will need some very creative ideas.

    Comment by JohnPotter — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 8:27 am

  36. The war does seems to be raging on and the trouble is the army is scattered, some already are non aligned and wish to remain that way, some are too tired and some too old.

    What groups there are would do well to align their energies and knowledge, it is needed to start, a show of solidarity.

    Comment by mama — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 8:45 am

  37. Again, fostering supportive mainstream media would do wonders.

    Several Facebook forums have attracted significant readership, including MoMA’s FB page for some articles, nearly all of which have also been published here. (Facebook is nowhere near as suitable for discussion of important matters as is this MENZ Issues forum using WordPress, but there’s no accounting for fashion…) That kind of communication appears to have informed a large proportion of the public whose replies to news articles etc show they are becoming vigilant to feminist lies. However, those in power are still almost totally aligned with the feminist causes of false propaganda and privilege for women, or they’re too frightened to speak out truthfully. And neither politicians nor news media have caught up with the changing public sentiment, yet.

    New initiatives if halfway sensible such as Audi’s will no doubt contribute further to the slow progress, then when the wave gets big enough the change will be fast.

    Keep in mind though that men have a tendency to feel threatened by implications that they are, or have been, useless.

    Mainstream media support. What ideas to get this happening from at least one news medium? Money talks in news media these days, even more so than the past given the competition from new players.

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 9:06 am

  38. MENZ and Womenz experience summed up

    False allegations to trigger court involvement
    Standard down time without contact with one’s kids
    expensive costs for litigation or poor representation on legal aid
    emotional abuse
    psychological abuse
    and financial abuse of father or mother or targeted parent due to delays
    no accountability for the person making false allegations
    And even when concerns are raised of veracity – no action is made to deter mean parent from redoing it
    CYFS and POLICE conspiring to protect the one making the false allegations
    CYFS and Police maintaining the new status quo even against evidence they should not be involved
    Use of newly made “status quo” as a deterrent to restoring care.
    Ongoing interloping by these agencies in one’s life defeating every effort to reunite as a family
    Eventually destruction of the family setting
    and persecution of one parent against that parent’s right and the children’s best interest.
    Incidentally a boost of the statistics that men are violent.
    Incidentally more biased policies targeting more good parent.
    Incidentally more laws passed to combat the new figures raised on the back of men or vilified parents.

    Our struggle is not a war against feminism. It is a daily war for survival not just physically but emotionally, psychologically and spiritually.

    Our very existence is at risk and our personal dissolution is imminent. something we revisit on a daily basis.

    These are the things that have brought us here.
    These are the things that we have to address on a daily basis.

    If you can teach us how to successfully use a defamation suit to protect our name
    I f you can help parents understand what they are going through and the best way to protect themselves and their families.
    And create a network of legal support for parents undergoing this and empowering them to stand tall and fight for their right to pursuit of happiness and lead them to success without them being forever maimed and wounded by this system.

    Then as a first measure, I have no doubt we can overturn the feminist boat.

    Your lack of experience in the Family Court is concerning because this forum essentially is mainly driven by those whom know what it feels like to be eviscerated and tasked to patch their wounds with salt and pepper under penalty of jail time.

    And whilst this is happening they are witnessing powerless their own children being used and abused by every branch of the system that needs to boost their figures to validate and justify their own unlawful forays into our lives.

    WE are financially bereft, emotionally bankrupt, psychologically maimed and spiritually constipated.

    Reality for us is a dream long discarded, normalcy is beyond reach and life itself is a daily struggle.

    you can see why suicide numbers are rising and we can see why men run to better lands where the feminist boat cannot reach, at least for another 20 years.

    I am up for the struggle – we are already in it and there is no letting up – win or loose.

    But what we need now is support and education which somehow this site does provide to a certain extent.

    What men need further is to get organized – which you are proposing and you seem to have the financial backing to establish.

    Even though you call yourself “listen” it does seem only one ear is open. The other is focused on your own agenda which to me, so far and from reading this thread, seems more driven on a political message and a new party than addressing direct issues affecting men.

    I Say this because of some comments towards Murray and Downunder – using certain pejorative terms shines the light negatively on you. And make me wonder if truly your pseudonym is rightfully yours and whether you can embody it in the long term.

    Like John Potter says – we need – and my emphasis is on the WE need an agenda that reflects the communal men and woman experience on this site. It is actually and probably the best sample of NZ men/women that has been to the front and back. Has lost their teeth and innocence.

    So that when we meet people arrive hungry for information on that agenda which hopefully will empower them in their own personal journeys then; when we get together again, with anticipation, we can share good stories of success instead of scum and of fLAWS (fucked up laws)

    My humble thoughts and I am sure they echo many of those lurking in the background reading.

    More importantly, there are already groups out there helping men.
    Their input will be priceless in this journey you are inviting us on.
    Establishing a common platform with most of them likely will be the glue we need to raise awareness of NZ biggest issue, the persecution of men and women and children using men as scape goats.

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 10:27 am

  39. Another issue, pertinent I believe is men only get funding for “therapy” against violence.
    So for any group out there trying to help men, unless they agree to men being violent and providing a safe place for that man so he can be ejected from his family, there is no help, no support – NADA.

    Many of those groups are playing with numbers. their job in order to get funding and survive is to accept that men are violent and provide plans to mitigate that violence and provide a facility for that violent man to be treated for violence whislt that man is removed from the home he built or the mortgage he is paying.

    Undoubtedly, the policeman that took him out of his home will most likely be the one keeping his wife or partner safe at night. inside and out.

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 10:35 am

  40. Your domestic violence incident is now processed by phone app.

    Saving trees and tax payer dollars.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 10:49 am

  41. I am coming to November the 3rd meeting , Where and when ? Also i do offer a ride from North Shore

    Audi is OK . Please support him , regardless of some unimportant semantic issues . Actually I admire him . In my Protection Order , the Judge , wrote ” George has aloud voice , he is from Macedonia and aggressive extrovert ,he is a domineering man but the woman is from Japan , shy, modest, polite , kind , emotional et etc . That ” shy, kind woman” admitted to the Judge she physically attacked me several times and that I simply left aftre being punched . I could have appealed only on base of race profiling and stereotyping but I didn’t .

    Reason 1 for me to support Audi – He is braver and more determined than I was .
    Reason 2 – Most of the men here would advice Audi not to fight the windmills and to move on , and they might be right but he carries on with his fight. Respect Audi .

    Comment by george simonovski — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 11:26 am

  42. Good on you George – I support this meeting and I think it is a great idea.
    I shan’t be attending but if anything I can do to assist, I will more than happy to oblige.
    The date clashes with other prior arrangement but if it can be moved one week either way, I will b happy to attend

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 12:25 pm

  43. Hi John and George.

    I look forward to meeting you on Saturday 3 November at 1pm. I will advise the venue once we get closer to the time and I know the numbers attending. I am hoping that more people can come and we can continue the great work of those that have gone before in making a difference in men’s lives.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 10:42 pm

  44. Hi JustCurious and MoMA and Mama,

    Thank you for your words of support. I do very much respect the work of the old hands in the NZ men’s rights movement and my perhaps terse comments came from a misunderstanding of how last year’s planned and well supported meeting did not come to pass.

    I also know that some of my comments have been quite unilateral and haven’t left room for a more inclusive “WE”. I feel enormous sympathy for everyone on this site, but I also desperately want to make a difference in men’s lives. To make that difference the action group I am proposing can’t include people who will (albeit unintentionally) sabotage the work. To be effective we need to hold the moral high ground. If we don’t we won’t gain traction (i.e. the ear of the people) when we start to get publicity. I’m sorry but – to those of you who are still hurting so much that you don’t respect women – to those of your who are so angry that you call people names – to those of you who are still in so much pain that you can’t think straight – I say this – I will work my ass off for you – but I can’t work with you – you need to do your own healing before you are ready to help others.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 11:15 pm

  45. Hi Murray,

    You strike me as a very comedic fellow and in that spirit I was teasing you a bit. I apologise if that caused you any disquiet.

    You suggested that you couldn’t understand how my legal actions might make a difference in the lives of men who are discriminated against by Governmental organisations and in the Family Court. Perhaps I could explain?

    My actions are not, as you suggested, in defamation. I am taking actions against Governmental organisations for breaches of my rights under the Bill of Rights Act and the Human Rights Act. In short, Governmental organisations are duty-bound to be fair and not to discriminate on the basis of sex. If they do (and they have in my case discriminated against be because I’m a man) then I’m owed considerable damages. If I win (and I will win) then the Courts will have found that public servants have discriminated against men. That will be a public relations coup for men’s rights.

    But wait, there’s more. I’m also taking action in Tort against individual public servants for something called Misfeasance in Public Office. Also very much in short, public servants are personally liable for damages if they recklessly break the law in ways that recklessly does harm to members of the public.

    If I win (and I will) then imagine the chilling effect that will have on radical feminist public servants. Would you discriminate if you knew that you may be personally fined up to hundred’s of thousands of dollars in damages? Would you discriminate if your bosses had sternly warned you not to, because they don’t want public scorn directed at their organisations, and they don’t want to have damages claims leveled against them personally under vicarious liability?

    I will try to help men who have suffered horrific discrimination, but my bigger aim is to stop that discrimination ever occurring in the first instance.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 25th September 2018 @ 11:59 pm

  46. bigger aim is to stop discrimination ever occuring

    Good luck.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 12:31 am

  47. “If you believe in equal rights, then what do ‘women’s rights,’ ‘gay rights,’ etc., mean? Either they are redundant or they are violations of the principle of equal rights for all.”

    Thomas Sowell

    Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 6:07 am

  48. That Evan, should be a banner!

    Comment by mama — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 9:04 am

  49. Dear Expensive Audi,
    I agree that setting legal precedents can be of huge value, in open caught$.
    Generally this has happened after coordinated efforts by groups of people with fairly good legal skills and experience. The teamwork required only happens among groups of people with good mental health.
    Choosing the issues that will yield valuable, workable precedents is not as simple as it might sound.
    There have been several valuable precedents in familycaught$, that were obviated by later legal actions. In the end, no value was achieved, as nothing is binding in any sense, in familycaught$.
    If I “joke” about mental health, it is because in all humility I have been at the margins, for a variety of reasons. But despite that, I have been a stayer and a continuer. These are issues that would need to be successfully addressed if we are ever to achieve working teamwork, within the resources that we have.
    Jeff Page spent several $hundreds of thousands, to privately prosecute perjury in District Court. The case got through initial stages. At the start of the second hearing, judge says “no permission to publish”, case thrown out. The expensive barrista said don’t worry, I won’t charge you from here. But nothing actually happened. So Jeff ended up funding an expensive CH3CH2OOH habit and nothing else.
    Paul C obtained a precedent setting decision against IRD Child Support. But it was drafted by the judge in a way that prevented it being useful as a precedent by other people! These are people that are difficult to pin down to doing something useful.
    I am not trying to be negative, but it really is necessary to learn from what has gone before.
    My personal interest is to help men and women to not be mangled by familycaught$. Most of all, to protect their children from consequent damage.
    I don’t actually buy your statement (though I can only guess what is going on):

    My pseudonym is in part to protect me because some matters may be considered sub judice and to protect vulnerable members of my family.

    My “simplifications” are in reality complex nuances. You think they won’t fly. Well… I will respect the wisdom of more experienced folk… but frankly your efforts thus far have made hardly a dent in the man-hating feminist juggernaut that seems to be winning all the battles. Is it time for the old guard to make room for some fresh ideas?

    In my opinion, listening to all sides is the key ingredient to moving these situations forward. I am not persuaded that you have listened enough?
    I don’t wish to stand in your way.
    I want to work with people who work as an effective team.
    I am worried that you may end up feeding the enemy and not achieve anything else? End result, the situation ends up actually slightly worse?
    So I am still down at the pub, with the other drunkards…….achieving something.
    Best wishes, MurrayBacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 11:18 am

  50. The teamwork required only happens among groups of people with good mental health.

    I think you have that the wrong way around.

    Mental Health is only as good as the moment. (Give anyone a fright) It’s teamwork essentially and trust is a big help that keeps people’s mental health together.

    I’ve said that before; they will undermine trust.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 12:44 pm

  51. And not just you Murray. This guy has been in his silo too long and thinks like a girl,

    Keep in mind though that men have a tendency to feel threatened by implications that they are, or have been, useless.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 1:00 pm

  52. IF we’re ever gunna survive, we need to get… a little bit crazy,,, Seal.

    Comment by mama — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 1:14 pm

  53. One of those got talent judges says that …

    Get your crazy on, Mama.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 1:31 pm

  54. I love Seal! And the quote is spot on for what we need.
    I accept Downunder’s point that mental health is of the moment. But to a quick approximation, my original statement still stands. Where there are some degree of mental health problems, if they are faced and worked with, progress can still occur. That is my point for raising this issue.
    I have very fond memories of UoF and North Shore Men’s Centre, the people and the debates and arguments that went on in them…..
    From his own statements, Audi wants to tackle feminists. I don’t see them as a significant problem. It is Government and mainly judges who are the problem, in my boring opinion. Supposedly the Government is driven by public opinion, so maybe there is a lesson there?
    In the short term, personally, I want to focus on protecting people, from being taken advantage of.
    So Audi’s proposal simply lies outside the area of my interest. Fine.
    Audi can do his thing. I can do mine. No problem, that I can see…. (Though I hate feeding the enemy.)
    Best wishes, if it needs to be said again.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 1:36 pm

  55. There’s people clinging to borrowed time, they don’t know any better. They’ll keep you occupied to collect their pay.

    But they’re not the enemy.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 1:45 pm

  56. It’s kinda funny

    On one hand Audi is wishing to change the climate for us by tackling feminism but more importantly raising a personal liability issue and accountability among government officials through tort law and malfeasance claims.

    If successful, it will be a new era of accountability unprecedented.

    On the other hand we are all under the weather and may not see further than the end of our nose due to attempting simply to wait out the weather ad survive.

    Funnily enough, it seems the aim is the same.

    The only discord is the vision which essentially is the same but one side needs relief in the short term so they can see the longer term and the other side needs to appreciate the short term in order to reach his/her/their long term goals.

    However the short and long term goal both benefit us. Concerted action is solely required.

    the rest is semantic and left over trauma clashing against bravado

    Logically two fishes today is better than 4 possible fishes tomorrow.

    CUrrently, apart from small satellite groups, there is no united effort to pull us all together.

    UOF and every other movement have been mummified – apart from this here effort that proposes to bring us all together – what else do we have?

    Sometimes the lack of choice itself may be the only choice one has.

    Comment by JustCurious — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 2:04 pm

  57. [email protected]… no?….Is is not equal rights we are after?

    Comment by mama — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 2:13 pm

  58. I for one do not want my grandsons being forced and educated to become any thing other than who they are, it is bad enough that they are educated solely by ladies in loafers but to think that something more perverse is being proposed throughout their education is unacceptable.

    Comment by mama — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 2:56 pm

  59. Dear fellow men

    Audi is not stupid, egocentric or without a fire in his guts, that is for sure. Unlike the rest of us , he is just more determined . What’s wrong with that ?

    We all failed miserably in our legal battles against the heavily rigged police and Court system . IS That a reason not to support him ?

    Instead of cheap shots at him ( MUrray ,( again ) , ” Expensive Audi” ) or some ” neutral” pseudo intellectual passive aggressive divisive comments , we should all unite under his banner. What do we think of Audi or his legal case is not important , what he is fighting against is important.

    Please someone explain to me , how come a female from Vietnam who has been in NZ for only 7 months is able by default to garner all the sympathy and bias from female NZ born and bred Judges, lawyers and Police in no time , although they all know she is lying through the skin of her teeth ?

    What we are afraid if we support Audi ? Our Egos ? our don’t rock the rigged system misguided feelings ? Are we afraid of the system’s retaliation ? Are we afraid that Audi might succeed where we all failed ?

    Obviously lot of females are not afraid of what we, the men, are afraid of . And that is why they are winning.

    If this is not enough for all of us to support Audi then we are just a bunch of useless w—–s

    Comment by george simonovski — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 3:29 pm

  60. @59 The poster has made it clear that supporters in HIS campaign are included at HIS discretion.

    That may attract some attention, and the moderator has been supportive to the extent of a pinned post.

    Given that this wasn’t a particularly well thought out venture the poster will need to accept he has a severe deficiency in public relations and organisational skills.

    People not inclined to leap at this opportunity could hardly be considered a bunch of wankers.

    The more sensible option would be to scrap the food and dietary requirements, advise a time date and place and see who turns up.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 4:16 pm

  61. What the heck, one can only spend so much time on a Sunday nurturing the garden.
    Count me in as an attendee, also prepared to throw in some notes to offset expenses.
    Would also bring buckets of popcorn for naysayers to munch on between their jibes.

    Comment by Paul Catton — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 4:37 pm

  62. @60 – hahaaha, are you sulking?

    You have used every epithet known to men against feminism.
    But your version of feminism seems like a direct attack on women not feminists.

    And yet you seem offended that someone calls you a wanker.
    Or that your way of fighting feminism does harm to other men’s cause?

    I have cringed at some of the posts you make Downunder.
    They do draw negative attention.

    They do draw attention however and it is a rare skill to have.

    I should have compiled all your inputs so far and what a great line up of attention grabbing titles.

    Imagine this skill harnessed and used positively and for a good cause.

    As George says –

    Perhaps we should all hold on to our opinion and give this a fair go.

    People often know what they want but not everyone knows what they need.

    And a free meal along the way as well as an opportunity to get out of our dungeons and away from our screens may be the healthiest thing we have done for a while.

    And the opportunity to meet face to face is not one to shy away from.

    It might actually instill more respect with one another as opposed to throwing words to other ghosts under pseudonyms.

    Yep, we are all real, Let me know the venue and I will send cakes in case some of us decide to have a pavlova war.

    Comment by JustCurious — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 6:30 pm

  63. @60 – hahaaha, are you sulking?

    How on earth did your head arrive there?

    The better option would be for an internet disaster to not get any worse.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 6:51 pm

  64. IF this is not a typical female statement – I will stay if you want me to but obviously you do not wanna be with me!

    @59 The poster has made it clear that supporters in HIS campaign are included at HIS discretion.

    Then I am not sure whee my head it.

    There is a term for it… I just can’t name it at the moment

    It’s all right man, I am your biggest fan.

    But if you dish it you must take it.

    Comment by JustCurious — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 7:40 pm

  65. @64

    Writers take a global approach to audience, projection, impact.

    I suspect you have confused that analysis with a personal statement.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 7:51 pm

  66. Thanks Paul.

    I look forward to meeting you on Saturday the 3rd November at 1pm – venue to be advised.

    And thanks to you George and Justcurious for your kind words of support.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 7:53 pm

  67. Gosh! I have only been on this site a few days and in that time I have learned a lot about myself.

    I (somehow) have my period.
    I need a hug.
    I’m insane.
    I don’t listen.
    I named myself after an elitist car.
    I’m vague.
    I’m too simplistic.
    My proposals won’t fly.
    I don’t care about men harmed in the family court.
    I’m autocratic and exclusive.
    My aims are unachievable.
    I won’t be successful in my court actions.
    I live in a silo.
    I think like a girl – ouch! You really know how to insult a man!
    I have tendencies to feel threatened.
    I expect people to support me but I won’t support other people.
    I lack PR and organisational skills; and
    I should not offer food at a proposed meeting.

    Good to know. Good to know. I always knew I had room for improvement, but I didn’t really know how much room that was. I’ll get right on it! Or, crawl under a rock. One of those!

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 8:25 pm

  68. Audi
    I’m keen to get involved and so I will attend the meeting, MoMa has a gig each year and I find them worthwhile, Its good to know who are the shakers and movers concerning mens issues and who are the pretenders.
    Please advise the venue location asap.
    One question.. if you are complaining about breeches of the human rights act, why have you not complained to the human rights commission about it, its free.

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 8:32 pm

  69. Or… I must just fight back a bit…

    I am planning a meeting of men who might wish to meet regularly to take action to save men from the harms caused by the current war on men. (Wherever this harm occurs – including in the Family Court!)

    And yes (shock horror) I want to be a tad exclusive about who comes to that meeting. However, that exclusion is not about people – is is about attitudes. That exclusion is not about what “I” want! It is about excluding things that harm men, from a meeting of people who wish to alleviate harm foisted on men. I am pretty darn sure that the following things actually cause harm to men:

    Ad hominem attacks on the people whose ideas are opposed
    Calling people names
    Making gross generalisations
    Being unreasonable and unreasoned; and
    Being exclusively aligned with far-right political beliefs

    These things harm men because they give many feminists legitimate reason to be demeaning and dismissive of men. And those demeaning and dismissive attitudes are the root cause of men being harmed.

    If we are relentlessly respectful, honest, reasonable and fair, then that takes the wind out of the man-hating female-chauvinists’ sails.

    Here’s a challenge. If your want to reply to this comment, set out a well reasoned argument why that idea is wrong. Don’t just continue telling me that I’m wrong. Tell me why my idea is wrong. Play the ball – not the man!

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 9:06 pm

  70. #69 I included a question in my comment above yours….

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 9:15 pm

  71. Hi voices back from the bush.

    Thanks for you message. In my original post I noted that I would give people up to the 5th of October to RSVP. On the 6 October I will count up the attendees and then book a venue of a suitable size. I cannot therefore advise about the venue before early October.

    The HRC! Yes, of course I have complained to them about the breaches of my human rights. But seriously! Do you think the HRC are staffed by people who could care less about women discriminating against men? MoMA has spoken to the Commissioner and he nods and smiles, but the entrenched attitudes within the staff of the HRC who dismiss and demean men are not bothered by his vacuous agreement. If you have been following my posts you may have noticed that I am planning further legal proceedings. Guess which Crown Entity is going to be the next cab off the block?

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 9:28 pm

  72. #47 Gosh Evan, we hardly seem to ever agree about anything! We really do need to try harder to be good friends!

    “If you believe in equal rights, then what do ‘women’s rights,’ ‘gay rights,’ etc., mean? Either they are redundant or they are violations of the principle of equal rights for all.”

    Thomas Sowell

    But until that happens, I must point out that Thomas Sowell’s quote is complete bunkum! He is a far-right economist, so his views need to be seen through that lens. He wants rich people to hang on to their lovely money and not have to pay anything towards fighting oppression.

    I believe in equal human rights. So, when women are oppressed I support their struggle to overcome that oppression. When gays are oppressed I support their struggle to overcome that oppression. When men are oppressed I support their struggle to overcome that oppression. Why wouldn’t I? Why shouldn’t I?

    Men are being oppressed in NZ in 2018 to the extent that they would prefer to be dead and they killing themselves in droves. Should I march up and down Queen Street with a placard saying “I support equality”? How will the public find out about the plight of men unless I spell that out for the public?

    There is nothing at all wrong with special interest groups letting oppressors know about how much they are hurting! [There is though something very wrong when a fight against oppression morphs into a fight for privilege!]

    The feminists cottoned onto this years ago. They call it intersectionality. They make friends with others who also deem themselves oppressed. Men’s rights activists should I posit take a leaf out of the feminist play book and make friends with other right’s activists – not mock them as per Mr Sowell’s modus operandi.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 10:09 pm

  73. When we talk here, we never talk about the further reaching consequences that ripple out from the maligning of Men in our country. I guess it could all go without saying but as a spokes person for the paternal family and a mother of one of the sons, we can not either go back to ordinary lives when one of the family is missing due to gross and overly punitive effects of the court system.

    Comment by mama — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 10:14 pm

  74. 72, ..

    Things have changed so very rapidly.

    Frustrations born out of every minority group under the sun putting up their hands whilst man were still being man. The problem is that man has been sidelined, man is not good at complaining, that is what woman do, do men now have to complain too, no, he can smooze too, he can ‘me too’.

    I wish man were not in this position and until three years ago I did not know he was…but what can one do, beat the opposition at their own game?..

    What I do know , as we all do, is that more awareness is necessary, even if only for ourselves.

    Comment by mama — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 10:28 pm

  75. Dear Murray et al,

    For clarity, I told the story about my court battles to gain some street-cred so as not to be seen as just another Johnny-come-lately. That is not my agenda for the proposed meeting. I can (and will) win those court battles on my own. (Yes Murray – despite the fact that others have lost and that leads to a sense of learned helplessness – I will win!)

    I have suggested fighting man-hating propaganda as the agenda for the first meeting. The attendees (not I) will decide what action will be taken on whatever agenda that the attendees set. I have been painted by some as egomaniacal. I’m not, but I have been very assertive about 3 things:

    1) There is going to be a meeting.
    2) It is going to be about action.
    3) It is not going to include abuse (women-hating or name-calling etc.)

    Here’s some starters for a brain-storming session on actions the group could take.

    ~ Form a charitable trust and raise money by donation.
    ~ How about “Men’s Lives Matter” as a working title?
    ~ Use the money raised to pay sympathetic lawyers to help men in the family court.
    ~ Subsidise counselling for abused men.
    ~ Get influential people as patrons and on the board.
    ~ Seek out sympathetic journalists.
    ~ Start a men’s refuge and lobby for government funding for that.
    ~ Be so level-headed that the press seek us out for informed but controversial comment on gender issues
    ~ Lobby the Institute of Judicial Studies so that their Domestic Violence training of Judges is no longer weighted towards seeing the man as the perpetrator.
    ~ Ditto for Police training.
    ~ Facilitate support groups for abused and disenfranchised men.
    ~ Hold to account journalists, commentators and academics when they tell horrible lies about men.

    And if any of you tell me one more time that it’s all hopeless, then go and tell your therapists that Audi said you have a bad case of learned helplessness.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 11:30 pm

  76. #71 Audi, you are misinformed and mistaken.

    You say you complained to the HRC?
    Did you fill out the online complaint form and what response did you receive?

    The HRC is headed by two women, neither is a he as you claim.

    Ministry of men’s affairs won a discrimination case at the HRC office last year after a conference centre cancelled a men’s meeting in wellington at late notice without reasonable cause.
    They claimed there might be protests.

    MoMa said “well we gave you a list of speakers and a list of topics that were to be discussed, what is wrong with any of it?

    They didn’t want to talk about it.

    After a bit of negotiation MoMa was awarded several thousand dollars in compensation and a public apology.
    It was an unprecedented win and a small triumph for men’s rights and also for those that care about free speech.

    I was very proud to be there and included.

    We were (slightly surprisingly) not treated as women hating scum at all, it gave me the confidence to forward my own complaint about police handling of a domestic violence incident I incurred four years ago.
    My complaint against NZ police has been accepted and in less than a month I will have a showdown with police top brass lawyers at the ChCh HRC office.

    My claim is that I was treated with bias but also that mine was not an isolated incident.

    I’m claiming that police systematically disregard male victims of DV and also that they are reluctant to punish female offenders and over-eager to blame the male in situations of Inter-partner
    domestic violence.

    Plain and simple – Its discrimination !

    I’m not short of evidence.

    Im looking forward to posting about it once I am successful,
    I cant be over confident because as far as I’m aware no one has challenged police in this way before, but I’m determined.
    If I’m successful I hope to achieve some changes in policy regarding consideration for male victims of violence and a review of police procedures also.

    Among other targets- I’m going to do all I can to send that fucking deluth Model wheel bullshit into the pages of history.

    Wish me luck.

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Wed 26th September 2018 @ 11:38 pm

  77. Hi Voices,

    Sadly, I am neither misinformed nor mistaken. We are simply talking about different matters. I was referring to when Hans met with then Commissioner David Rutherford and David promised him that the HRC would be mindful of men’s rights.

    I am not prepared to discuss details of my pending litigation in a public forum but suffice to say that my experience with the HRC was very different to yours.

    Before she died Ellen Pence admitted that she had got it all wrong with the Deluth Model. She said that she spent years only seeing what she wanted to see.

    I couldn’t agree with you more and do very much wish you luck.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 12:05 am

  78. #77 Audi, Well you’ve proved your salt in my books knowing something of Ellen Pence.
    I like the suggestions at Comment #75 also.

    And ‘Men’s lives matter’? yes why not.

    If you look back at Downunders attempt at constructing a meeting you will see I made suggestions for potential venues but none were deemed worthwhile or acceptable.

    I’m looking forward to your meeting now!

    And if no one more suitable wants to act as scribe or chair for the first meeting I will volunteer.
    Any other assistance needed? just ask.

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 12:30 am

  79. #72

    Basically all you have done is say this man is wrong and repeat the Feminist line from 125 years ago.

    Actually, Kate Sheppard pretty much nailed it all those years ago, Gill says, when she said: “All that separates, whether of race, class, creed, or sex, is inhuman, and must be overcome.”

    “Women’s rights are human rights, and these are not just for special groups of people, they are for everyone,” Greer says.

    “How do we make life better for women on lower incomes on short term contracts, earning low wages, who might be single parents? How do we prevent transgender secondary students from being more likely to commit suicide?

    “Feminism cannot move forward unless we move together, and if we don’t support equal rights for everybody then what are we doing? We have to be at the forefront for people who are too often

    Comment by Evan Myers — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 3:17 am

  80. “It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.”
    Thomas Sewell

    Comment by Evan Myers — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 8:16 am

  81. Can someone please put up a post with the title- “totally irrelevant waffle, complete crap and incessant rubbish that has nothing to offer the men’s movement.

    Please guys, don’t bring that crap to a men’s meeting in November, stay home and play with your buttons that day.

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 8:34 am

  82. @81 you mean like someone knowing something about Ellen Pence?

    In 1987, Sowell testified in favor of federal appeals court judge Robert Bork during the hearings for Bork’s nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court. In his testimony, Sowell said that Bork was “the most highly qualified nominee of this generation” and that judicial activism, a concept that Bork opposed as committed originalist and textualist, “has not been beneficial to minorities.

    Comment by Downunder — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 8:47 am

  83. I don’t see that details of Robert Bork’s nomination to the supreme court has anything to do with helping nz men in future. I do believe that removing the Duluth model from policy’s relating to DV most definitely will help.
    Perhaps I need another refresher from you about how everything’s been tried before and nothing worthwhile is achievable.
    Why don’t you come along to the meeting a give us a lecture on Thomas Sowell so we can identify you and thank you for your service.

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 9:08 am

  84. #83

    and that judicial activism, a concept that Bork opposed as committed originalist and textualist, “has not been beneficial to minorities.

    Comment by Downunder — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 9:23 am

  85. I don’t think it is all hopeless Audi – if I did I wouldn’t give up a Saturday afternoon.

    However, experience tells me that when it comes to men the answer is not as simple as:

    letting oppressors know about how much they [we] are hurting!

    I have come to believe that deep down in our animal brains we have programming to protect women and children, and that this instinct is exploited and manipulated by modern feminist activists.

    I don’t think we have the same instinct to protect men – if a male is perceived as a “looser” he is a potential danger to the tribe and expendable. I think men can learn to care for each other, but it doesn’t come naturally.

    On a socio-political level, I see an even bigger problem, one which makes “taking a leaf from the feminist play-book” unlikely to succeed.

    In a recent Quillette article Why It’s Not OK to Hate Men, author Tim Lott explains:

    To hate such a disparate group [as men] seems – is – demented. However, there is a prism through which it makes perfect sense, the prism constructed by the odd and contradictory fusion of neo-Marxism and post-modernism.

    In this scheme of thought, now widely taught in the humanities and social science departments of the West’s leading universities, there are no intrinsically superior, universal values, like love or dignity or general human goodwill – and no such thing as ‘objective’ truth in the scientific sense. It’s all relative. There are just multiple and sometimes overlapping groups that compete for power, and their values, even their idea of what constitutes a ‘fact’, are determined by the relative status of their group. The most powerful group in society – in all societies – are men, and men, therefore, are collectively guilty for the oppression of every less powerful group.

    Since anything men utter is tainted by their place in the power hierarchy and their implicit desire to maintain that power – a homeless man at Grand Central station may be surprised, even delighted, to learn that he occupies a ‘privileged’ position in this hierarchy – nothing a man says can be taken at face value because, consciously or unconsciously, it is imbued with patriarchal values and language. Whether they realise it or not, all men are engaged in a struggle to consolidate and extend their power, particularly over women.

    Comment by JohnPotter — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 9:29 am

  86. # 75,, I like the body of what you propose, and with the experience of these guys behind will enlighten the load, this could be an exciting beginning.

    # 83,, The wheel turned 345 degrees, it has been aquaplaning since, most everything the wheel had\was is now, all too often, being used by the so called victim.

    Comment by mama — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 9:47 am

  87. #85,, John says,

    “I don’t think we have the same instinct to protect men – if a male is perceived as a “looser” he is a potential danger to the tribe and expendable. I think men can learn to care for each other, but it doesn’t come naturally”.

    I agree, this makes it hard to put a case for men forward, especially at the present time. Public opinion probably has man as the violent partner as this is what we are hearing , backed up by stats. For this reason I am not sure about the name, ‘Men’s Lives’ Matter’.,, and I do think the name is important if you want public opinion to matter.

    Comment by mama — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 10:01 am

  88. How about MANSTAND, pride is important now and men out there need a dose of this.

    Comment by mama — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 10:07 am

  89. @85

    With a slight modification to that, call it ‘De Truth Wheel’ …

    At which point the man will attack or defend

    1, another man
    2, a woman that is attacking him
    3, attack a child (there’s a varying scale from discipline to death)
    4, defend a child
    5, defend a woman
    6, defend a child from a woman
    7, defend a woman who has hurt a child
    8, defend a child being hurt by a woman

    Comment by Downunder — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 10:08 am

  90. My morning thoughts – since I will not be attending – I will offer my thoughts on the paper.

    I agree with contents of post 75 as far as agenda – that is great!!!

    Black lives matter is very close to men’s lives matter.

    I think however and strategically it would be a misnomer.

    I think to get the immediate media response required

    Men should seek equality as our slogan and thus ride the feminist slogan against them – Equality for men!

    That is a brain fuck in itself. And a 180 turn. Feminist seek protection from men and men are now victimized and are seeking protection from discrimination.

    Or to put it more bluntly – stop violence against men. Or against children as they are the most directly affected. Or “against NZ Family”

    Eventually Justice for all!

    No one can reasonably blame anyone for seeking equality and justice.

    And the violence we are addressing is the systematic violence.

    The fight is about equality for all.

    The focus thus is on equality of outcome not gender based outcomes as we currently have.

    Underneath it

    shine the light against fallacies

    Add pertinent questions to feminists such as “at what age do your boys become abusers? (currently all men are abusers so all boys are time delayed abusers)”

    C’mon Downunder, I bet you can come up with better than I propose.

    Comment by JustCurious — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 10:56 am

  91. Hi Guys and Girls,

    Is it just me? Or is there a slight increase in optimism and cooperation on this site?

    If there is, then yah!

    But let’s not leave out the nay-sayers. Groups can get too optimistic as well as too pessimistic at their peril. If I may be so bold as to suggest an eponymous aphorism – people are best served by listening to the other side.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 1:50 pm

  92. #79 Hi Evan,

    Basically all you have done is say this man is wrong and repeat the Feminist line from 125 years ago.

    Umm… that’s not correct. I have suggested that he was wrong and I gave a reason for that.

    The providing of reasons is important. Judges are required to give reasons with their judgments. (Don’t get me started on the quality of that reasoning!) One purpose for this convention is to get Judges to stop and think. Stopping and thinking is of critical importance if we are to have any impact on the exceptionally challenging task of changing widely held and deeply entrenched social attitudes towards men.

    Actually, Kate Sheppard pretty much nailed it all those years ago, Gill says, when she said: “All that separates, whether of race, class, creed, or sex, is inhuman, and must be overcome.”

    “Women’s rights are human rights, and these are not just for special groups of people, they are for everyone,” Greer says.

    “How do we make life better for women on lower incomes on short term contracts, earning low wages, who might be single parents? How do we prevent transgender secondary students from being more likely to commit suicide?

    “Feminism cannot move forward unless we move together, and if we don’t support equal rights for everybody then what are we doing? We have to be at the forefront for people who are too often

    Do you have a problem with any of those quotes? I don’t! Some things that feminists do and say are very harmful. Some others are innocuous or beneficial. Stopping and thinking will help us discern the difference and give us credibility.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 2:08 pm

  93. I do have problem with what she says…Not sure about this one, where are the transgender secondary students suicide stats? if they are with the men they do not feature, maybe a possible one, and I do not trivialise the one.
    Men however do hold the higher stat, is when she talks of everyone does this exclude men always??

    as for the last paragraph, there are now many rights where men do not equalise. Happily these are being ignored, unless you swear to the movement?

    She sounds single minded…with the exception of the minority groups of course.

    Comment by mama — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 3:27 pm

  94. Home work from Bettina, if some one wants to check it out.

    I would suggest you look at some of my YouTube videos.. see the one on Fighting Feminism. Also look for videos of the ICMI 2018 conference in London.. Look at Karen Straughan’s talk… but also lots of others talking about strategy there.

    Comment by mama — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 6:27 pm

  95. Hi Downunder

    At #45 I say:

    my bigger aim is to stop that discrimination ever occurring

    And at #46 you reply:

    bigger aim is to stop discrimination ever occuring

    Good luck.

    The slight difference is leaving the word “that” out. This is what’s known as a strawman argument. By only slightly changing what I said Downunder makes it sound like I am trying to ‘boil the ocean’ and then makes the sarcastic comment “Good luck” to discredit what was my more modest and actually achievable aim. An aim that if realised would save many men from harm.

    This on top of his “125 Years of Feminist Stupidity” thread (which is an outlandishly misogynistic and moronic thing to say) makes me concerned about what is in Downunder’s down-under regions. Is he in reality a feminist troll? Has anyone here actually met him and can vouch for him?

    Maybe I’m being to harsh? Maybe he is just a grumpy old man?

    Regardless of all that though, he/she makes a very good point at #84 in bringing up “Judicial Activism” Judicial Activism is when judges fill in the blanks in the law, or bend, or stretch the law to the end of achieving what the judge sees as substantive justice. So, if a judge who is imbued with feminist perspectives on Intimate Partner Abuse that pervade our media, and this is reinforced by the training that the judge receives from the Institute of Judicial Studies, the judge could easily end up being biased towards women. Decisions given by the judge would be seen by him or her as delivering substantive justice to what is inevitably a poor downtrodden woman.

    It seems to me that many men on this site have borne the brunt of Femcentric Judicial Activism. Not all Judicial Activism is bad however and in one of my current proceedings I have asked the Court of Appeal to set out what limits should apply to Judicial Activism.

    I hear a lot of anger on this site against judges and against courts. Judges though cannot help but reflect not only the laws but also the mores of a society. That is why fighting the propaganda war is so important a part of our struggle. If we change the zeitgeist, we change everything.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 8:26 pm

  96. Maybe Murray was right?

    Comment by mama — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 8:59 pm

  97. #85 Thanks for your very interesting post John.

    It certainly makes fighting for men’s rights seem like a daunting task.

    Radical feminist Catherine MacKinnon did a sterling job of helping feminists see men as the bourgeois and women as the proletariat. This paradigm of being persistently oppressed is hard to shift and seems to be repeated ad nauseam in the media and in academia. I guess that is why I am staunchly opposed to things like “125 Years of Feminist Stupidity.” Feminists will (and no doubt do) look at this site. When they see that, it is confirmed for them that men want women to be voteless, barefoot, and pregnant in the kitchen. That erroneous paradigm is thus reinforced.

    Post-modernism is similarly pervasive, but it is not all bad. It holds that the narrative of the elite is not necessarily better that the narrative of the underlings. My narrative is not necessarily correct and your’s wrong or vice versa. However post-modernism gets perverted by the mistaken assumption that all narratives are equal. Some narratives are wonderful and others are complete crap. Perhaps it is different for other men but in my world the women are the new elite and I’m of a lower class because I’m a man. Post-modernism can actually be used to deconstruct the faulty belief that the feminist narratives are wonderful and opposing narratives are just plain wrong.

    It seems to me that our society is more gynocentric than patriarchal. Men will for the very most part not oppose women and neither will most women. One way we can work with that social reality is to ensure that we have women supporting us, and to ensure that we point out where the excesses of feminism are harming women.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Thu 27th September 2018 @ 9:30 pm

  98. Good morning Mama,

    Murray is clearly right that men are being hurt in the Family Court.

    But I have my doubts that his getting pissed at the local pub is going to help those hurt men more than men getting together to to fight that discrimination in a unified way.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Fri 28th September 2018 @ 7:17 am

  99. It is not only Family Court where the men are hurt.The same happens in Dispute tribunal , CYF, Police or any other government’s agency /institutions for that matter .

    Comment by Tony — Fri 28th September 2018 @ 10:48 am

  100. JustCurious @90. Thanks, most of your suggested slogans and underlying missions we agree with. We put out a badge a couple of years ago saying “Men Matter Too”.

    However, the one point we would disagree with you on is seeking “equality of outcome”. That is a focus of the feminists, although theirs might be better described as seeking ‘at least equality but preferably superiority of outcome’.

    Equality of opportunity, rights and treatment is a better focus. Seeking equality of outcome will usually involve unequal treatment.

    The feminists are demanding equality of outcome regarding earnings, but this can only be achieved by paying women with less experience, career commitment and contribution as much as men who are more qualified, committed and productive.

    For example, take police. When the officers’ lives are at risk it will usually be the male who goes forward to accost the alleged offender while the female officer will stay or follow behind. This is reflected, for example, in the list of the 29 NZ police officers who have been killed in their line of duty by criminal actions. Every one of them was male.

    Although there are no readily available statistics on the gender of those officers who have felt the need to use lethal force against an alleged offender, we can predict they will nearly all be male because it is the male officers who go forward towards the most dangerous offenders. (We don’t recall any female officers facing investigation for using lethal force, though we can’t rule out the possibility.) The case of Steven Wallace was an example. The two male officers left their car and confronted Mr Wallace while the female officer remained in her car and maintained communications with HQ (an important but much safer role). One of the male officers ended up shooting and killing Mr Wallace after attempts to open dialogue, repeated warnings that the officer would shoot if Mr Wallace did not stop advancing holding a metal bat above his head and verbally threatening to kill the officer, and firing a warning shot into the air. That officer faced years of investigation and private prosecution for murder including Appeal Court proceedings, before being acquitted by a jury; those are among the consequences of going forward on the front line. (For a more detailed account of the Wallace shooting, see Reply #32 here on MENZ Issues).

    Even the 17 police officers who died by ‘accident’, i.e. mostly through dangerous activities trying to rescue people or to enforce the law, included only one female and that was simply because she was attending a meeting in a building that collapsed in the 2011 Christchurch earthquake.

    Yet the proportion of female police superintendents and female senior roles is greater than the proportion of female police officers generally. That’s special treatment resulting from efforts to equalize an outcome, in this case the number of females in senior roles. That outcome has been pursued regardless of female numbers in the force generally or the extent to which those females did the hard yards in front-line experience, which anyway would usually not have compared to the men’s front-line experience. In pursuing an equality outcome in senior roles, women are being promoted through special treatment and that amounts to discrimination against men, aside from the inevitability that the quality of senior police management will suffer.

    The Labia Party’s preferential selection of female candidates in the last election was another similar example.

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Fri 28th September 2018 @ 12:07 pm

  101. @100

    “equality of outcome”.

    I support your view on that.

    When equality was too hard Feminists turned to equity arguments.

    It would be an equity argument that enforced an equallity of outcome.

    Given the opportunity the individual must succeed in their own right.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Fri 28th September 2018 @ 12:19 pm

  102. Family and sexual violence are complicated, affect every part of our community and demand a coordinated, committed response.”

    The board includes the chief executives of Oranga Tamariki, Health, Te Puni Kōkiri, Social Development, Education, Justice, Poilce, ACC, Corrections and the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.

    The first task of the all-of-government group is to develop a national strategy and action plan, and for the first time, prepare a single integrated package across the agencies for next year’s Budget.

    Papers released by the previous National government showed taxpayers spend $1.4 billion on family violence each year, but Logie said only 1 per cent of that was spent on prevention.

    Logie agreed more money needed to be spent on prevention and rehabilitation programmes, but was unable to yet provide specific details on dollar amounts.

    Social services on the frontline of dealing with family violence, such as Shine or the Women’s Refuge, received a $76 million boost in this year’s Budget, spread over four years, which was part of the coalition agreement between Labour and New Zealand First.

    In a world first, Green MP Logie has also ushered through new legislation to allow domestic violence victims to take up to 10 days of paid leave.

    She told the Herald the “joint venture” would steer changes to make it easier for victims to get help.

    “One woman told me getting support was like walking in a forest, with booby traps everywhere, without a map.”

    Responsibility for addressing New Zealand’s “unacceptable” rates of violence is currently spread across at least 10 different government agencies.

    Logie said the new board of chief executives will clarify who is responsible for what, identify priorities for action, and guide investment into plans for prevention and early intervention.

    Making the high-powered group of chief executives accountable will drive the necessary change through the agencies, said Logie, although the actual measure had yet to be determined.

    However, she said the joint venture would be report on its progress to a Select Committee in Parliament and an annual report.

    Logie acknowledged the work of the previous National government and hoped both sides of Parliament would be able to work together to tackle the complex social issues.

    All New Zealanders had a part to play said Logie, who hoped to help create a culture where family violence was the “aberration, not tragically commonplace”.

    Documents released to the Herald under the Official Information Act show previous efforts to develop an “effective integrated family and sexual violence system” have failed.

    This was because of “competing cross-agency demands, an absence of an overarching strategy, lost momentum as a consequence of changing priorities, insufficient community involvement and because key stakeholders are not accountable”.

    The aide memoire to Minister for Children Tracey Martin by Oranga Tamariki supported the joint-venture approach but said it was unlikely, by itself, to reduce violence.

    “It is important that we also ensure that people impacted by family and sexual violence can access help when they need it.

    “Recent New Zealand evaluations and research have identified both insufficient volumes of family and sexual violence services, and a mix of services that does not properly target need.

    “Addressing these gaps is likely to require significant and sustained government expenditure.”

    New Approach

    The board of the joint venture includes the chief executives of the following departments.

    Oranga Tamariki
    Te Puni Kōkiri
    Social Development
    The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet

    Comment by Evan Myers — Fri 28th September 2018 @ 5:27 pm

  103. Sorry, I missed the first part out in the previous comment.

    Chief executives from 10 government agencies will now be held accountable as part of a new strategy to end New Zealand’s appalling record of family and sexual violence.

    The yet-to-be-named “joint venture” across the public service will report to a board of the chief executives to establish a single point of leadership and accountability, Jan Logie announced today at the annual Māori Women’s Welfare League conference in Gisborne.

    Victims find it difficult to get help – as do offenders – because of a fragmented approach from government agencies and community services, which have not been measured to see if they work or not.

    “We have to stop splitting this issue up into half a dozen unconnected silos,” said Logie, the Under-Secretary to the Minister of Justice for domestic and sexual violence issues.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Fri 28th September 2018 @ 5:31 pm

  104. This is from an American investigative journalist;

    If you have a son, make sure you buy him a note pad, a body camera, & a recording device. Get him a battery pack too so he can always protect himself with video evidence of every single encounter he has with a woman.

    Men aren’t safe in America anymore.

    There is a war on men.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 6:58 am

  105. Dear MoMa.

    Equality of outcome

    I do not refer to the feminist agenda in terms of in=play=men (employmnent)

    I mean before the authoriies or the various courts. Courts try to create a predictve expectation of outcomes. Give them :facts” they give you a decision.

    That is an outcome.

    Currently, males being discriminated against is an equality of outcome issue before the courts due to gender bias.

    Comment by JustCurious — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 9:52 am

  106. That’s not an outcome.

    The outcome is the consequence of the decision not the decision itself, regardless of how the decision is arrived at.

    The outcome should be seen as open ended and on going.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 10:02 am

  107. I would suggest this is part of the male confusion between Criminal and Civil Law.

    The outcome of the trial was that he was found guilty, and the ongoing consequence was imprisonment.

    The outcome of a civil case can’t be known.

    Following the decision, the respondent suffered a financial deprivation he was unable to combat. He eventually descended into a spiraling depression and took his own life.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 10:11 am

  108. NO point discussing semantics downunder.
    we are not in court and nor are we speaking legalese.
    If you know what I mean, correct it in your brain and address what I mean.
    Other wise we become pedantic. Even though you are right,I am also right.
    But we cannot be both right if one of us must be wrong.

    A decision is a result of a process and therefore an outcome. Simple aye?

    Comment by JustCurious — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 2:37 pm

  109. Pedantic … hardly.

    Why do you think the likes of Warren Farrell invest so much time in ESTABLISHING PROVEN OUTCOMES?


    Comment by Downunder — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 3:10 pm

  110. I applaud your optimism Audi Alteram Partem. I pretty much gave up on this group which I consider a venue for the sport of “Ego-wrestling”. Most all energy dissapated nit-picking. In the meantime it seems even Linux is falling prey to feminism and the anti-male agenda. As for the meeting in Auckland on 4th November – well I won’t know if that will work for me in time to RSVP – its a long way to travel. But if I can turn up, I am quite happy to starve if there is the slightest chance of anything positive arising. The despair and disallusionment is probably shared by those who might be found in the pub drowning their sorrows – but I don’t drink.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 9:07 pm

  111. @110.
    Register with user name and your possible attendance
    Starve you wont.

    Comment by Paul Catton — Sat 29th September 2018 @ 10:50 pm

  112. Audi – Firstly thank you.

    Would it be possible for a video link to the meeting? Perhaps only available to contributing long term members of MENZ. This is a nationwide group and for most it is difficult to travel the distance.

    It is true. This group of hard done by men are just seen as moaners. I come here to moan about a few things I see on the news sites but thats about as far as I go.

    People who want to get things done, who want change, who are burning with passion and are willing to put themselves in harms way usually start of getting a group and protesting. The larger the protest group the more they are listen to.

    A man who was a sole protester in the streets about what happened to him was never listened to. So a year and 2 days ago he went to parliament and burned himself to death. It was in the news for a day or two. The man was deemed to have mental health issues by the PM. But I suspect the man had his rights abused by the system and could not cope with no one listing to his loss and injustice. Part of me believes he gave his life to bring attention to the plight of men. To help bring change. It did not.

    After protests (usually in very small numbers) activists run for office. They know if you want change to need to be in a senior role in Government. And that is how you change things.

    Woman had a hard start. They had to get the right to vote first. They were bashed and hated, even by woman at first. It was decades later they had a minister for womans affairs and years still for the property matrimonial act and so on.

    I don’t want men to have any less or more rights or advantages than woman. I want what is fair and right for everyone.

    If you have a mens political party you only need 5% or more of the nationwide vote to have the same percentage of MP’s. In some parliaments like the one we have now it would force a move back to equality. Even establish a ministry for mens affairs.

    You can protest until people choose to listen or run for office and hopefully hold the balance of power. I guarantee if you held the balance of power the main parties will listen with sober earnest.

    The choice is moan and protest in small groups, beg for help from your local MP who will think your suggestions would be political suicide or run for office.

    So hands up who wants to run for office and be abused, called a rapist lover, be a target and withstand the highest level of scrutiny in the nastiest backstabbing occupation ever?

    Also hands up for donations?

    Head start suggestion. You need a known figure for a leader. Male would be OK but a female would be better.

    Comment by Lukenz — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 3:48 am

  113. @110

    I pretty much gave up on this group which I consider a venue for the sport of “Ego-wrestling”. 

    This should not be seen as a group.

    A site, a page, a room for some individuals.

    The site serves differently for each individual, and their own unique situation, their expression of that, whether they see other users understanding that, or dismissing it.

    [It’s important to remember; while that didn’t happen to me, it could have.]

    The expressions of ego are healthy, it’s those continual challenges that grow understanding and keep pace with the changing and developing circumstances that confront men.

    What’s being said here is vastly different now to what was said 20 years ago.

    The habitual grind has stopped – most importantly that related to endless links to Stuff News. Of recent we’ve been making our own news.

    A small step, but one in the right direction, better than despondent reaction.

    Comment by Downunder — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 10:45 am

  114. JP @85

    There are just multiple and sometimes overlapping groups that compete for power, and their values, even their idea of what constitutes a ‘fact’, are determined by the relative status of their group …

    While that statement is intended to reflect on the larger scheme of things, reduce that to the individuals and small groups here and there is a corresponding competition for resolution based on recognition of the individual problem or what has offended their values/principles or the injustice that has confronted the individual.

    Comment by Downunder — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 1:34 pm

  115. @113 Downunder, I think your reply proves my point. Thanks for the hair splitting lecture. Not everybody communicates as you would prefer they do. Exhausting their enery by such trivial correcting can only reduce the number of participants and the level of time and energy they can contribute. Its an “Own-Goal”.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 1:57 pm

  116. If I had been told that this site was a group, I would have considered it closed to those only whom belong. Instead I found a place where people had experience and sympathy for what I was going through.

    I did enquire as to whether I would be welcome, I did not just assume.

    Three years ago through my son I found myself within the justice system, not ever having had knowledge of the system, we did not make it through successfully, and as time went on things seemed to get worse. Then came BS allegations which turned our lives upside down, I looked for some where to go to seek relevant NZ information and although I came across plenty of hellish stories from abroad this was the only site that I found relevancy, unfortunately COSA no longer existed but I have been able to find solace and comradery here. is that okay?

    Comment by mama — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 8:01 pm

  117. #116 Hi Mama, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I for one think it is perfectly okay to find solace and comradery here, and I suspect that almost everyone on this site feels the same.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 10:29 pm

  118. #110. Hi Kiwi Keith. Thanks for the kind words. I’ll save a place at the table in case you can make it. If you need help with travel costs, let me know and I’ll sort something out.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 10:34 pm

  119. #112 Hi Luke and thanks to you as well for your kind words. I think our first meeting will be quite low tech and we won’t have video conferencing facilities. We will certainly consider your suggestions and any others you may make wish to make in the interim. I’ll also forward the minutes, if you are interested.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 30th September 2018 @ 10:45 pm

  120. Audi Alteram Partem @118: I enjoy your comments. I really am not sure I can make it to Auckland at all, but I would like to. A medical thing is scheduled about then. Appointments can arise out of the blue and require short notice cancellation of existing plans. So am keeping things flexible.
    As for your kind offer, much appreciated – you are most kind. However I might be able to make it happen unaided. That medical thing prevents me making arrangements at this time so I will have to pay full price. I have no idea at this point, what will be discussed, and what the objective is. But I will never know that unless I am there to listen. I have no idea what I would next need to do, or what it might cost from say, the airport, or the Intercity bus station.
    It would be pleasing to see something family positive come from this.

    Comment by kiwi Keith — Mon 1st October 2018 @ 7:21 am

  121. #112 @LUKENZ

    Thanks for raising the media profile issue. Likewise, I have done so with both the recent MoMA and Kids need Dads conferences.

    Similar lame excuses I might add.

    Anyone who has been to a public meeting recently would have seen people with cellphones catching audio clips and video clips, live streaming from a phone holder, or feeding into an online podcast site that embeds to a web page.

    It’s a flat-tyre attitude, not a technology one and the same old same old … you won’t get far until you change it.

    Footnote: Friendly media is a myth and a hard learned lesson.

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 1st October 2018 @ 7:33 am

  122. #116 @Mama

    It’s encouraging to know the site can attract such positive feedback, thank you.

    Whether we like it or not there are gender barriers and you may have inadvertently excluded yourself from a group.

    Given the participation and contributions we have had from you, that would have been our loss as much as yours.

    While there are groups around, you have to dig a hole in the ground to find them.

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 1st October 2018 @ 7:41 am

  123. mama @116:- Your comment brings it back to me just how isolated, desperate and lonely it felt during court hostilities. I too had the idea that this site was for members only – not so. It is very public. Some while back I saw that somehow some folks could even see the email addresses of the contributors. That worried me. But for those like me and so many others too – where can we go to get tips from others who have preceded us through the mincer? We are usually very lonely, distressed and going through utter terror – it is my view that people like us also need private access to good advice. The last example of that which I know of was COSA, which was run by John and Felicity (apologies if I offend others I do not yet know of). Maybe someone will set something up. With COSA, it was not just anybody, Felicity was very important. As a female and a medical doctor, she dodged many of the torpedo’s which are shot at males and those suffering false allegations. Males need not apply for the role of CEO because the modern sport is to bring down all males who stick their neck out.

    Comment by kiwi keith — Mon 1st October 2018 @ 8:03 am

  124. #112 @Lukenz.

    I would like to hear any thoughts any of you may have on forming a political party. Mike Buchanan’s Justice for Men and Boy’s Party has generated some publicity but has been a complete flop at the ballot box. I suspect that the failure is due to men essentially being gynocentric and there being very little chance of turning that around. At the height of patriarchy men were willing to sacrifice their very lives to save the women and children first. Paul Elam would like to see that change, but from my point of view I quite like being chivalrous and can see no reason to give up chivalry as part of my quest to fight for men’s rights.

    I also wonder what laws need changing (such as could be achieved by a minor party who hold the balance of power) to protect men from harm? Discrimination against men is already illegal with damages up to $200,000 available. Judges have sworn an oath to do right to all manner of people without fear or favour, affection or ill-will, and if they fail to do so, that is an irresistible ground for appeal. It seems to me that the law is mostly okay but the problem is perverse attitudes towards men that taint the actions of many judges and many who work in social services.

    I initially saw the most effective work could be done by building a fence at the top of the cliff (i.e. activism to change insidious attitudes) but after listening to men and women on this site I now see that we also need an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff (eg: personal support and legal advice for damaged men [and women]) until the fence becomes reliably effective.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Mon 1st October 2018 @ 4:45 pm

  125. Audi Alteram Partem @124: I think Kerry Bevin was trying to be political at one stage. It is a good idea even though I would be stunned if it had success at the ballot box. Perhaps more a role of presenting the issues. There can be no doubt how distastful it would be to many and how it and those in it would come under attack. Although I do not see myself as a political asset, I would support it so long as it stayed true to the over all good of united families and equal responsibilities to match rights – which is not sameness.
    For now, I think it a step too far to be romancing over chivalry, because that is the mechanism where women feel entitled and males feel obligated – all that without women earning the respect they demand as of right or their even acting as a lady. Women need to value men before such things can be sorted out. But I will bet that whoever sticks their neck out will need an armoured protection to ensure its not chopped off.

    Comment by kiwi keith — Mon 1st October 2018 @ 6:34 pm

  126. I think Socrates was the one saying that the only way to be of purpose in one’s life to society is by political activism.

    Before so, by leading an examplary life so as to be an example and if needed, die for one’s convictions and those of his constituents.

    Sadly as in anything, the human factor is always the faulty ingredient. A party is a party until it becomes a beast where rather than serving human interest, it becomes an institution whereby it corrupts the human soul and feeds of his living energy.

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 8:42 am

  127. That’s why governments and most political parties end game is their survival over men and time.

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 8:44 am

  128. Do you think we should put Jacinda on trial for corrupting the youth and being the Goddess of Leisure and Corruption?

    A death sentence might be a bit harsh … but it could be interesting.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 9:43 am


    Political Correctness has so much to answer for, no longer can someone say what they necessarily mean, this in itself makes life more of a minefield, people are not even sure what they should say, so they are becoming more insular,more silent,more inclined to do only what they think is right at the time or right for them, free speech is being denounced and no one seems to know if the likes of chivalry has a place any longer.
    Ultra feminism or what ever YOU might call it, has jumped on the train and gotten much traction, the man or woman in the street, would care ,I am sure, if they knew the things we know.

    On the good front, much is being said lately of the problems with the lack of male teachers.
    The women MPs are tripping themselves up with their lack of experience.
    THE TIME is RIGHTER THAN BEFORE..time is bringing things back around perhaps…and although I am not an avid Trump fan, I am very glad he is there.

    Comment by mama — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 10:15 am

  130. … and in the background you could hear Jethro Tull playing Locomotive Breath.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 10:27 am

  131. HAHA ,,how did you know…

    Comment by mama — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 10:29 am

  132. Its a shame that people cannt organise something without all the ridiculous comments.

    Comment by Jason — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 12:10 pm

  133. Dear Jason, a few ridiculous comments waste a little bit of people’s time, but not much. There is lots of steam and explosive power that needs to be safely let out.
    What matters, is that in this page, there are a lot of good ideas, coming from many directions, that are options for action. It is productive to get past the less valuable ideas and the ridiculous ones, so that an in-person meeting can be constructive.
    For all of the stupidity, there has been a lot of sharing of ideas and weeding them out. This is a complex territory and it is not as simple as many people would like it to be. This preparatory work is essential.
    Bravo – Thanks to everyone!

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 2:32 pm

  134. So far to date.

    Attendance confirmed:

    Audi Alteram Partem (Sponsor).
    John Potter, MENZ Issues.
    Paul Catton.
    William Baldwin aka voices back from the bush, Waiheke Island.
    George Simonovski, Brown Bay , North Shore , Auckland.

    Please register your intention if able to attend on the following post

    Comment by Paul Catton — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 10:08 pm

  135. Thanks Paul,

    And we should leave a spare seat for KiwiKeith, should his health and other commitments allow.

    Any other brave folk who might like to respond to a call to action?

    Peter (aka Audi)

    RSVP by 5 October (or 7 October… if accompanied by bribes)

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 2nd October 2018 @ 10:56 pm

  136. It is pity that none of Audi’s critics are not going to attend the meeting. Why ?

    Comment by Tony — Wed 3rd October 2018 @ 12:23 pm

  137. How do you know that Audi’s critics are not attending the meeting?

    You’re a critic if you can’t go or choose not to?

    Given that Audi has said that he has already spoken to some people by phone, then those decisions may have already been made before hostilities erupted here.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 3rd October 2018 @ 12:54 pm

  138. I prefer to save my energy for real issues rather than splitting hair with people who don’t understand that divided we fall , united we stand.

    Comment by Tony — Wed 3rd October 2018 @ 10:18 pm

  139. @137. For clarity anybody who genuinely wishes to make a positive difference in men’s and women’s lives is most welcome to come. My phone calls to some Ministry of Men’s Affairs members were a long time before I came on this site and in no way related the meeting on the 3 November.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 3rd October 2018 @ 10:47 pm

  140. Why be a critic at all? Why dissapate energy that way? or in ego wrestling for that matter. Imagine what could be achieved if all energies were aligned in united purpose! It is better in my view to achieve something, even if it isn’t perfect – than it is to achieve nothing discussing endlessly towards unachievable perfection.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Thu 4th October 2018 @ 2:52 pm

  141. @Keith it is one of the most essential male behaviours.

    Academics peer review
    Writers critique
    And so on …

    In general we sometimes do it in jest, in uncertainty, in pursuit of an outcome, to prevent the same mistake.

    It’s a valid activity.

    Sometimes it is used negatively, to establish a predetermined position.

    You might call that political criticism, intended to shut down opposition.

    Comment by Downunder — Thu 4th October 2018 @ 3:03 pm

  142. Where’s Mama?

    Is that another aspect of our PC World?

    We’re were supposed to live without criticism rather than being taught effective criticism?

    Comment by Evan Myers — Thu 4th October 2018 @ 3:22 pm

  143. It is also a very valid thing to unite and work to achieve worthwhile purposes. The habit of criticism can prevent worthwhile progress.

    Comment by Kiwi Kwith — Thu 4th October 2018 @ 4:14 pm

  144. Is this a worthwhile purpose

    Kiwi Keith?

    Comment by Evan Myers — Thu 4th October 2018 @ 4:30 pm

  145. @ Kiwi Keith

    I am very glad I came across your well meaning , logical efforts for unity . This is not the first time that anyone who called for unity and action had been belittled or in best case ignored. Sad , very sad

    Comment by Tony — Thu 4th October 2018 @ 5:22 pm

  146. @144- Yes it is but not as pitched.
    It’s basically trying to get guys to act like women by telling stories.
    Guess what, it’s not working yet. Perhaps when all men gen feminized enough, it might
    But it makes whomever is doing it feel good about what they are doing. That’ worthwhile.

    This however, should be quoted and pinned on this site somewhere as a banner

    It is also a very valid thing to unite and work to achieve worthwhile purposes.
    The habit of criticism can prevent worthwhile progress.


    Comment by JustCurious — Thu 4th October 2018 @ 6:49 pm

  147. Again, we have within our midst, a hot pots, with 146 comments and counting, yet it seems we have only 7 (seven) confirmed attendees.
    Is it really any wonder that traction rectifying the pendulum swing adversely towards males, may never be abated.

    Comment by Paul Catton — Fri 5th October 2018 @ 10:10 pm

  148. @147

    Auckland, even though it’s the biggest population centre is a hard market to work, Paul.

    Given the audience of this site 7 so far is bloody miracle.

    I am sure you can allow for a couple of participants who will turn up when they know where the meeting is and perhaps a couple of late comers who see the post in the next month.

    If there Was 10 – 12, that would be milking it, as we say in provinces.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 6th October 2018 @ 9:28 am

  149. To Audi Alteram Partem:- I have been tracking the travel options. I re-read the original piece. It mentions that these are going to be regular meetings. So maybe I can catch a subsequent one. I just checked costs, and assisted or not, the cost is insanely out of proportion. I would prefer to get the car’s transmission serviced before deciding to drive up, although that looks to be the most viable option because it deals to local mobility as well as distance travel.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Sat 6th October 2018 @ 11:08 am

  150. Since things are only at a talk stage, as opposed to action, maybe a separate post here could be used in the initial stages to discuss ways forward.

    Comment by mama — Sat 6th October 2018 @ 11:17 am

  151. There may be some observers out there thinking the same thing Mama.

    Here’s a Ways Forward post.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 6th October 2018 @ 11:49 am

  152. @149. Sure Keith that’s fine. My very strong hope is that there will be regular meetings and that these will be springboards into actions that save men from harm.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 3:29 pm

  153. @ 150. Hi Mama, I very much look forward to meeting you on the 3 November and discussing what actions we can take on the way forward.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 3:32 pm

  154. 153,Thanks Audi, but seriously maybe the group could talk meeting wise here, there are privacy settings but I do not know of the capabilities.

    Comment by mama — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 3:39 pm

  155. @146. Hi JustCurious,

    Although I don’t personally agree with everything you say, I find many of your comments to be very insightful and hope that you will be able to attend future meetings.

    [What disagreement you ask curiously!] Well, I don’t think that guys “act like women by telling stories.” I’ve never studied literature, but I suspect that throughout time there have been a greater number of male ‘story tellers’ than female.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 3:43 pm

  156. @154. Good point Mama. It will be great to continue the conversation on this site. I don’t think that we need to limit that conversation to only those who are coming to the meeting. The more ideas the better perhaps?

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 3:48 pm

  157. @148. I would just like to clarify my intentions about notifications for the 3 November meeting. I will be booking a private room in a restaurant so there will not be much room for late RSVPs pending the size of the room.

    Also, I will not be advising the location of the meeting on this site. That advice will be by email to only the people who have notified that they are coming. I have seen the protests associated with men’s rights meetings and frankly we could do without the risk of that distraction.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 3:59 pm

  158. 156, Audi, thats cool, I am more than happy with this, I was just thinking of kiwi Keith and others whom want to partake.

    Comment by mama — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 4:26 pm

  159. mama @ 158:- I am involved, and my experiences mean this will always be the case. Its just as I understand it, a meeting for a couple of hours before I would need to head home and the flights at present look up around $600 which makes it very expensive, and that is without the other bits which would need to happen. There is a sleeper bus, but that would get me there exhausted and still poorer.
    It just does not seem to make sense this time, especially being so close to an expected sumoning to get myself repaired.
    I am not wishing to share my email over the MENZ site, although as I mentioned previously, some of you know how to see them for all those posting here – well unless that has changed.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 6:07 pm

  160. 159,,,Dear Kiwi Keith,,such costs are crazy for such a wee meet up especially with all that is going on for you, I was thinking we might have been able to use the privacy settings here but was unsure as to what they were… seems that no one is worried about content too much for now at least. I would not want to have my email details open to just any visitor here either.

    Comment by mama — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 6:21 pm

  161. Just Curious @ 146:- Well I think I understand your comment about “Stories” however I would avoid making the association using that word “Stories”. This is because if there are men who are launching [ficticous] stories and accusations in the men’s movement, the number of cases would be vanishingly few. Not so with women’s stories – #MeeToo for one example; and the false allegations which so many of us have had to weather, and had driven so many of us to oblivion.
    I do tell my story, but equally, few folks want to hear it – and I am sure this will be general response others will encounter too. But except for those who have active legal reasons which gags them; its no reason to not tell it.
    A woman I was talking to recently suggested I write a book. It is after all what women did too. Set up writing groups etc – they told feminist spin stories, we could give our stories some voice – except of course by today’s law most will qualify as “Hate-speech” I suppose. Any ideas how to tackle that?
    Anybody know how “ACCESS Radio” works – is there any potential there?
    But just because nobody wants to hear the truth, its no reason not to yell it far and wide.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Sun 7th October 2018 @ 6:24 pm

  162. … and in conclusion.

    The SG (Submission Committee) a select group by invitation only, are to lunch at an unknown location.
    As for dietary requirements Mr C does enjoy exercising the little finger on occasions so might I recommend a tray of cucumber sandwiches.

    So, after a riotous debate, spread across too many posts to ever follow again, we’re going to head to a music break … and with you now is Sir Paul from 1971, with Uncle Albert

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 7:17 am

  163. …. great song choice for the beginning of the working work,,,thanks DJ

    Comment by mama — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 8:00 am

  164. 162,, haha,,, i did not realise you were talkin bout us here till now,,very funny

    Comment by mama — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 12:10 pm

  165. Thanks Audi @ 155 for invite to subsequent meets. . I sure hope this one goes well. and there will be more. Talking helps.

    I am very happy to hear we do not always agree.

    I speak for those whom are between depression, suicide, nihilism and unreasonable hope and unshakeable faith when the odds are so stacked up one is safer outside his or her own mind.

    I have spoken to people whom ask me to send you their “doleances”…

    These are people whom have been so hurt but false promises and the system that they have to create as many personalities as needed to just make it through the day without either self immolating before parliament, bombing every church, incarcerating the entire police force or putting the entire ministry of vulnerable children staff into a mental institution.

    SO yeah I would be very suspicious of you if we did agree.
    But many thanks for listening.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 12:48 pm

  166. Please just make sure you stand by what you say. Audi

    The system can no longer affect us but the well meaning ones are the ones we fear most.

    Fast talkers and promise makers that fill us with hope and leave us worse off than previous.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 12:58 pm

  167. Just Curious @ 166:- I think you described very eloquently the various states and personalities I have occupied too. Well done. That said I’m not sure that the Well-meaning ones are the most dangerous. To my experience it was one way or other about how these folks saw themselves. Believers pretend that prayer is a substitute for real aid and trustworthiness. politicians make laws one way or other. Its not about what is best or right, but about votes and United Nations directives. They set up department which select staff according to some socio-political bias. That rot just gets deeper and smellier – buut they all line up as if they were doing worthwhile work – and of course in the best interests of women and children.
    But I think it sounds like I differ in this respect, that if we do not have somne confidence and faith in those who still stick their neck out, then we may as well all go home and stop bothering. I will always bother. My life was destroyed – I have nothing left to lose except my self rspect. As futile is my attempt, its still importand when I look in the mirror.

    Comment by Kiwi Kieth — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 1:14 pm

  168. All the big guns aside, government agencies, un etc,,, what I think stinks are these many Men charities out there that do not want to stick their neck out to protect Men,, I thought this is what they were there for on the first place, I really hope they do SOME good with their workshops and pamphlets but I have grave doubt.

    Comment by mama — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 2:24 pm

  169. mama @ 168:- you are exactly correct. And those manginas are feminists only with male anatomy which does not legitimise them speaking on the media as if representing all of us. What they do is all about them, what they can get and what unearned status is on offer. The same thing is going on with Family Violence -feminism – child’s best interests – policy – media – and any other cause being exploited for the destruction of family, and society. But you are too right – I really froth with anger when I hear those male equipped feminists.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 2:58 pm

  170. 169, Hey there Kiwi Keith,you sure came out gun slingin there, have you had a bad experience with them ,( mens, groups ) or just think they do not do any good?

    As far as Family Court goes I myself could not believe its most terrible way of ‘handling’ a Family, such lack of respect, particularly for the Father, hang on a moment , did you just say ‘Father’,,,the guy in the Family who got mucho respect, and now your’e treating him like SHIT!,,yes and do not get me started on “THE CHILDREN’S BEST BLOODY INTEREST”, what a load of crock!!!!!

    Comment by mama — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 3:15 pm

  171. @166

    Please just make sure you stand by what you say. Audi

    The system can no longer affect us but the well meaning ones are the ones we fear most.

    Fast talkers and promise makers that fill us with hope and leave us worse off than previous.

    I am touched on hearing the stories of how much feminist inspired contempt for men has (as with me) harmed so many of you and to such an extent.

    I doubt that I can let anyone down because I haven’t promised any more than organising a meeting and continuing to personally fight against the oppression of men in NZ. Those things I will do.

    If (as I hope) that meeting results in on-going action, I similarly can’t promise anything. But I might make a prediction. I predict a lot of hard work and needing to face a whole new torrent of rejection and abuse.

    I also predict that I will be a very challenging member of the group. I will challenge people to accept their hurt and their anger and move (for their own sake) to forgiveness and compassion towards those that have hurt them so much. This is not religion. I’m an atheist. What it is though, is self-care (think about it – who is your anger hurting – mostly just you eh?) and a step on the path towards effectively overcoming our tormentors once and for all.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 6:27 pm

  172. Mama @ 170:- Look I applaud everyone who sets out, and puts energy into this. I recall when I set out, I was sooooo naive. I believed in the government, police, child services etc etc – Hell how I learned. Others are like me too. So I will support whoever has the vision and energy. No!, I am not holding my breath. As I see it the odds are impossible. They do come down from the highest ranking, (but morally and ethically bankrupt) organisations, UN – Government – and through its many tentacles (NGO’s etcetera) to do its worst. So I applaud Audi Alteram Partem – he inspires me. What an opportunity, a meeting and some energy to make it happen – that might be the most magic thing going on. If we don’t put our effort behind things like this, then what other paths do we have which have the remotest possibility of benefitting (not only) us but the community, families. Although I do not aim for mediocrity, I do believe that “Done is better than perfect!” So like so many have expressed, its time to get something done, even if it isn’t perfect.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 6:41 pm

  173. Kiwi Keith – I stand besides you. We may disagree but your plea e…choes in me and many more people less volubile than I or still gagged and cautiously navigating the labyrinth of one underworld or another.

    I have met too many well meaning people (lawyers, counselors and even the odd cop).

    But then as soon as the heat gets near, they run so fast sometimes, they ended up at the emergency room for concussion.

    This is often due to repeated smacking of their their own heels on the back of their heads as they run.

    Not saying Audi is such, not at all. He brings hope.

    And I do know given enough support, something will germinate.

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 6:45 pm

  174. #94 mama

    I would suggest you look at some of my YouTube videos

    I searched on YouTube for mama Fighting Feminism, but didn’t find your videos. Please be so kind as to post links into this thread, to help all of us.
    I know it may sound as though I am a hairy old man, saying the newcomer doesn’t know what is going on.
    But I recall that in the first say 4 years of being a member of North Shore Men’s Centre, I was pretty sceptical of many of the things I was told about caught$ and other Government Departments.
    But as time went on, I heard more and more experiences and started to slowly appreciate how the different mangles operated. I got to hear a handful of women and couples making similar complaints. So I guess I had had about 600 hours of contacts, before I reasonably understood the breadth of what is going on. Maybe I am a bit slow? We are somewhat poor communicators, secrecy is a huge barrier to us working together.
    That is why I have tried to suggest that oldtimers share their experiences and recollections.
    I have also tried to suggest that newcomers listen, so that they won’t fall into many of the known traps. Then they can truly move forward, from what was achieved in the past.
    I have seen quite a few scoff at the idiots of the past, then seen them waste money that could have been better used. The examples that I have seen would total one or two $millions, for no useful result, but feeding the enemy.
    It is getting harder to learn from some of the past experiences.
    Jim Bagnall seems to be hiding, I haven’t seen him in a few years now. Others have forgotten their own names, for a variety of reasons. And the list goes on.
    I wish I could do more to make their experiences available to you……
    I am not trying to be rude Audi, just to show you the past as best I can, put it into perspective and put you into the strongest position to move forward.
    Best wishes,
    MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 8th October 2018 @ 10:56 pm

  175. The feminists dis a lot of story writing,and dramatic plays which conveyed their experiences, opinions, spin and lies. So your suggestion we record our stories is gushing with merit. I for one will participate. It would take me an age to write it though – but I do have a very good portable audio recorder and so could contribute in .WAV form. It is likely to be a large file though, so may will need to go on a DVD or Pen-drive and be posted to an address. I would have no problem with mine being public- as I would of course use some pseudonyms. If interested, then email [email protected]. As a bonus, my recorder is very portable and so it is possible I can help others out by using it. The rub would come into it if it were required to get the tracks into TXT form.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 6:41 am

  176. I am touched on hearing the stories of how much feminist inspired contempt for men has (as with me) harmed so many of you and to such an extent.

    (If you look carefully you can see the problem)

    Comment by Evan Myers — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 8:13 am

  177. #174, Dear Axe,,I love that name!…No,no,no…sorry it was ambiguos, and I had not at that time cottoned on to the quote highlight thingy here, my apologies….
    I had emailed Bettina Ardnt about working in with Mens groups, seems that is a bit of a bug bear for her, she sent me that paragraph, that is why I said, some homework from Bettina, and to tell you the truth I have not done that homework yet!

    Comment by mama — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 10:49 am

  178. #175,, Kiwi Keith,, It would be great to have a website for guys to write and record their stories anonymously, we need a body of work like this to show the country that there is a need for a change in attitude toward our Men, especially Our Fathers, the lack of respect has ruined, railroaded and made redundant a precious resource for the kids of NZ, just imagine growing up in a household of opression brought upon the household by someone who is not only their own worst enemy but the enemy of your entire Paternal Family, BUGGER THAT!.

    Comment by mama — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 10:55 am

  179. #176, Evan Myers,,, ( ha de ha )

    Comment by mama — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 11:01 am

  180. @Mama

    I didn’t write it … but I did read it.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 11:29 am

  181. #178 Dear mama, a few people have made a start on the type of project that you have suggested.
    Jim Bagnall’s Child Support Conference 2006 Remuera
    Henderson Men’s Conference Summit 2005
    I am interested to continue these projects, if people would like to share their experiences?
    In my opinion, they generally have more impact when people show their faces and names, as best they can remember them….
    Books are also a good way to share experiences.
    If we don’t put some energy into these projects, experiences get lost or are poorly communicated.
    With more practice, we can get better at communicating. We need to get better at both factual and emotional communication.
    We also need to break through the barriers to sympathy for men. In many cases, it seems the breakthrough occurs when a woman loses out in the wake of a man losing out, especially in terms of access to grandchildren. Another breakthrough may occur when a brother suicides or or is torn to pieces.
    Mainly, I want to protect everyone appropriately from malpractice. (The opposite of feeding lawyers?)

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 12:51 pm

  182. #181,, Dear Murray,,yes, it is far more impactful if you see the person that speaks.

    The trouble with now is they people are not only poor but time poor, not to mention emotionally poor and the list goes on, so keeping peoples attention is difficult if you can get it in the first place.

    I will have a look at those videos, it is far more relevant than Bettina for me.

    I am too a long tooth, but not in this field, I am vehemently pissed off at the situation we are in here in little ‘fair’ country NZ, that is for the guys.
    I have been watching this slowly unfold, the advertisements, the dissing, hearing women dissing their men and laughing when they get to see the back of them and all the while the general respectometer has for men been dropping and dropping.

    when a woman loses out in the wake of a man losing out

    I see what you mean, that is my line for the day, thanks BaconAxe.

    I truly am in awe of you guys and your fellow men who have given so much soul to these subjects we talk of here, at least that soul will not be lost.

    MALPRACTICE is the word….not the BEE GEES.

    Comment by mama — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 1:51 pm

  183. … when a woman loses out in the wake of a man losing out …

    As we’ve seen Murray and it’s recorded well enough here …

    If they can’t get you, they’ll get your woman.

    That’s what is more applicable to us. That they use corrupt and malicious violence.

    And the retired pillar of justice Paul Adams can have that rammed up his arse any time you like.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 2:04 pm

  184. Good points everyone…
    Every family is affected.
    May be men at the butt of every legal joke
    But their new partners and lost children are all victims.
    Every one loses in the end.

    This is not just a MENZ issue but a natio-anal disaster

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 2:40 pm

  185. Certainly putting our stories up is a great idea, but I don’t have high hopes of reaching the mids and hearts of the population at large. Feel free to wonder too – But how is it that there can be such a problem with de-fathering of families, male suicide, and so on, and yet the population at large is still not engaging the problem. Why do those people need the stories at all, assuming of course even the stories will work. I will do our story and add it in, but I do wonder what is wrong with the population at large. Generally they regard themselves as intelligent, educated, astute, moral and right thinking, and yet their sons, Dads, uncles brothers can be assaulted this way – and the situation men are in still needs pointing out to them…..? I do not get it. Is there a psychological explanation or a psychiatric one?

    Comment by Kiwi keith — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 6:37 pm

  186. I have to tell a story here, Keith.

    When this struck me between the ears, one of the first blokes I bumped into was Warren Heap.

    When he suggested a protest in Remuera outside Judge Jan Doogies place, I was right into that.

    So, there we were, loud haler and protests signs, opposite her house giving her the message.

    The guy from the house behind us come out,

    “She lives over the road, do you think you could go over there, this is not a good look for me.”

    “I get what you’re saying, mate, but we’d prefer to stay here.”

    Protest, protest.

    So, then HER next door neighbour comes out, and says, …

    “They’re not home, so you might as well go away. But you’ve already been to court so we know you are guilty.”

    Time, simply does not erode these memories.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 6:59 pm

  187. Downunder @186:- No doubt you were littering up a street in which the “decent folks?” reside. How dare you? And no, such memories never fade. I hope I have not suggested they do. Surely few families in New Zealand don’t have some experience or damage because, a male relative was unjustly treated, falsely accused and fleeced of assets and finances. Whose future is blighted and soul shattered because of lies, malice or devious intent. My own inpression is that few folks have families which remain undamaged by these things. So the situation with males should be common and accepted knowledge. What is going on that it is not. Talk to the guys mum, and she will be in anguish on how her son is treated and abused. But that same mum is likely to join the sisterhood in any campaign against other mums sons, or males in general. I think every day, we need to demand responsibility from all the females around us, and do never dish out “Pussy-passes!” Get them to own what they do as all adults should. Its their choioce if they want to be respected as adult.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 8:34 pm

  188. I have a wee story too. On doing my own ‘research’ into this matter I visited numerous psychologists to see who would help me by way of providing expert opinion to support my court proceedings. All the men said yes and all the women said no. Funny that! Anyhow, I noticed that a psychologist (who had a practice on College Hill Ponsonby) often gave affidavits of expert opinion to support abused women, so I made a series of appointments to see her. I also noticed that Jim Bagnall had carried out one of his famous protests outside her practice rooms. On about the 4th appointment (after canvassing my own extensive abuse at the behest of professional man-haters) I raised the matter of those protests, to which she replied, “Oh they are all child abusers and wife bashers!” “Gosh!” I exclaimed and then inquired “You know about those protesters’ personal lives?” “No, No” she replied, “But that’s what they are!”

    People only see what they want to see and disregard the rest.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 9:14 pm

  189. When it comes to professionals advising on one’s life one would expect professionalism.

    On a police report an O/Tamariki professional reported, using pratically, a quote from purjuristic affidavit written by lying , burying woman.

    Guilty before proven innocence, never proven innocence, disregarded innocence.

    Comment by mama — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 9:28 pm

  190. Audi Alteram Partem @188:- In my world the label “PROFESSIONAL” counts for nothing. Sure that may be unfair to a few individuals, but I really think they have to blame their piers for the bad reputation and distrust. Police, CYPs, Social workers, medics, lawyers, judges etc are all classed as professional, but how to find an honourable one is beyond me and is not in my experience. I did stumble latterly on a reliable Sovial worker, but he moved to Nelson and is in government employ now.
    I have visite rather a number of counsellors through the years and I am assessing them from the moment I lay eyes on them. And I am waiting to hear the fatal statements from them – first is “You have to move on!”; and another is “You need to take responsibility!” – if I hear those – then I know the person masquerading as a counsellor is as brain dead. I am sure that many here are just like me in being quite confident that they not only took their share of responsibility, but others share as well. And as for moving on – its my reallity that even today events occur daily which bring it all back again and again. And even just driving around – lawyers offices, the house we lost, the biased creche, CYPs buildings, police etc, there is nowhere to go where reminders are not intruding. For a so called professional? to not understand that – well they are obviously ill suited to counselling and will no doubt be over-charging. Professional certificates are at best meaningless to me and at worst cause me to raise all my defenses.
    It may interest you that with my old counsellor’s departure, I have been referred to the psychology unit at Massey uni. I had my initial consult the other day. The psych is female. I do not hold back with our story and I could see the effect of the matters taking a toll on her. Outwardly anyway, and maybe inwardly, she remained composed. Her reallity will become apparrent in time. Failing any benefit to me, she will at least have a memorable consult which will challenge what appears to be orthodox psychological dogma.
    Audi Alteram Partem – trust your gut with these people – while not perfect, it is better than trusting certificates.

    Comment by kiwi Keith — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 10:14 pm

  191. Incredulous! and WTF!

    It seems to me that many on this site are baffled by how feminists can be so stupid… so ignorant… so hurtful… so evil! And if you don’t know why they are behaving that way, then you can’t hope to know what to do about it.

    Over the past few years I’ve been giving those questions some consideration and have some ideas about that. Would you like to hear my ideas? Great! Thanks…

    I think it is because of tribalism (or some-such term). For tens of thousands of years we humans have been living in tribes. Our very survival depended on the strength of the tribe. By being united our tribe could fight off dangers and especially dangers presented by another tribe. Loyalty to the tribe is paramount. If you aren’t loyal to the tribe you are no use to them and they will discard you and you will, all alone, be eaten by wolves. We (humans) are almost hard-wired to support what social psychologists call the ‘in-group’ and fight for our survival against the ‘out-group’. When whipped-up by ferocious anti out-group propaganda we all find it exceptionally hard to resist and stand in opposition to what is held to be true by our group.

    This is not a defect peculiar to feminists or to women, it is just what people have been doing to each other for thousands of years.

    The cure? I suggest it is to change the script. Don’t give up. Don’t be complacent. Societies can and do change their dominant beliefs. We just need to make some noise. Not, I would suggest, an annoying cacophony that will be disregarded, but… a sound that rings true and will attract attention. That is what has changed societies beliefs in the past and that is what will continue to change the beliefs of societies.

    Well… That’s what I think. But – of course – I’m open to being corrected about that.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 10:30 pm

  192. My first men’s violence programme counselor was an ex panel beater . Why would he do a hard job when he could just sit down , preach and receive more money . The only precondition is to toe the feminists’line

    My second counselor spent 4 years in prison before becoming a ” counselor” . When i asked him why did he go to jail , he didn’t reply. The last two sessions we played chess in his office .

    Comment by Tony — Tue 9th October 2018 @ 11:41 pm

  193. Audi Alteram Partem @191:- I agree that individuals favour their groups, and in this case women favour women – the rub is that these women are the educators and moral trainers of sons – and worse, in todays world – all too often with no input from Dad. So I propose that women are probably training sons to fall for this – and don’t all sons love their Mums? (well except for a few cases).
    I notice a growing number of items on YouTube – these are by women who have their education, status, money, the great job – but their clock is forcing them to place value on having a man so as to adorn themselves with children too – Of course it has to be a “Good man!” code for (earns more than me!). Its like its still self serving and not genuinely about forming a healthy nest in which to raise healthy children. In my view men will do better if they avoid all females who have ever labelled themselves as Feminist. Okay maybe a bit severe to women like Karen and Cassey Jay, but it makes the point. I feel you are making great a great contribution. If only we can all get together and build this into something real and effective

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 8:10 am

  194. and don’t all sons love their Mums? (well except for a few cases).

    And will behave according to desire and expectations.

    To the point where they will exhibit two personalities in and out of her presence.

    Further, to the point they will engage in self destructive behavior to satisfy their source of comfort.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 9:11 am

  195. The dice is cast and we do meet on 3rd of November. It will be my first experience and that made me thinking what can I offer to the well meaning group. Let’s try .

    ON GENERAL LEVEL : I do support women’s right to be equal with men . I don’t support the abuse/ of that universal human right in the Family Court, Police, various Tribunals and other government’s institutions . The government/politicians need votes and has been deliberately targeting women as historically deprived category by over compensating them at family’s/men’s cost.

    REMEDY: Men should make clear they are not going to vote for a party which overcompensates women at family’s and men’s cost

    FEMINISTS: I love women and family but this noble.natural category has been hijacked by aggressive women scrupulous-less with absolute disregard for family and men . Unfortunately they are cynically financed by the government of the day as possible voters. 70 % of their female/male followers are attracted to this injustice by the selfish interests and some real or perceived personal injuries .

    HOW TO WIN: We should not alienate feminists by directly confronting them . We should join them in their right to be equal with men and within their right gently point to areas where men are not equal with women . We should us their equal rights fight to make us , the men, equal to them. And I really believe in gender equality.

    1. WE have to participate in their feminists meetings and gently remind them that we are fighting for the same as they do

    2. We should invite police officers to speak about violence in the men’s group’s meetings . So far police officers speak about violence only at women’s meetings . That is hwo we can fight police gender bias

    3. Most of the Family’s two way street abuses can be solved sing restorative justice instead of going to Family Court/ CYF.Police etc . Maori are very good at that plus they get government funding. We should join them .

    4. We should strongly denounce any proven physical violence man vs woman and vice versa .

    Thank you

    Comment by george simonovski — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 11:54 am

  196. 195,, Hello George Simonovski,.

    I do like your logic in many ways.

    I am not sure how Women would feel with a new group turning up at meetings, I like the head on approach and if we ask nicely first, maybe, if you can find the correct contact initially.

    I am unable to comment on how much young Men get together for these Mens groups meetings, you would have to make it worth the while for the police to input.
    I am dubious that Men want any thing more to do with Police after having been involved in any thing like the things talked about here, plus I do not think young Men are going to volunteer to turn up to learn Domestic Violence Prevention, and I am wondering how much DV is actually happening among young Men here in NZ. So very much of the explosion of violence against Women we have been seeing and hearing about lately is largely historical.

    I strongly agree with you around Restorative justice, it should be treated as the way forward and has to be handled SO WELL, with care and respect for the Family. No Lawyer involvement what so ever. In Europe they have been forced to think about their system as they are experiencing the same things there now too and they are pitching Mediation to be the way forward.
    Mediation was the main basis of the recent submissions I put forward.
    There are two Mediation Specialists on the review panel the Government has chosen, you can still put in Submission I believe.

    Comment by mama — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 2:51 pm

  197. George @195: Good ideas. We wish you and those attending well for the meeting and really hope it will lead to some effective influence.

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 6:31 pm

  198. @174 Thanks for your comments Murray. I too took a long time to realise the extent of discrimination against men and how this is practiced at the highest levels of governmental and non-governmental organisations. No doubt I have much still to learn and especially about the Family Court. I would dearly love to have the old-timers of NZ men’s rights share their wisdom with me, but on this site when I ask for that, all I get back is silence. It seems that I have pissed them off.

    You see – I personally find comments like “125 Years of Feminist Stupidity”, and using name calling tactics like “silly bitches” and “the Labia Party” quite offensive. My offence is of course irrelevant except that by using tactics like that they will alienate supporters like me. But the issue goes deeper than that. I have set out why I believe that such tactics are not just ill-mannered they actually harm men. I’m personally fighting very hard to save men from harm and when I look for camaraderie on this men’s site I find men doing things that actually harm other men. What gives with that?

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 8:21 pm

  199. @175. Hi Keith. I think the idea of recording your story is brilliant! With voice recognition software I imagine it would be relatively easy to turn it into text. We need to start amassing and publishing the stories of men harmed by discrimination against men as a critically important part of our arsenal in fighting that discrimination.

    I would though like to make a couple of suggestions. I suggest that the story will be most powerful if you talk only about what you know. You can know how you felt and what you said and did. You can know what other people said and did, but you can’t read their minds and suggest what their motivations or intentions were – despite your strong suspicions! Also be polite and respectful. Refer to people by their proper title. (The Judge as “the Judge” not as “that power-crazed megalomaniac sitting at the bench.”) If you report your story with dignity and respect you will more likely be listened to than if you rant.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 8:49 pm

  200. @ 195 Hi George. Thanks for your ideas. I concur with and appreciate the support of MoMA (@ 195) in suggesting they are good and wishing us well.

    One small point though – if I may? I’m passionate about men’s rights, but when I vote at a general election there are many, many matters I take into consideration. My concerns about gender politics may for example be subsumed by parallel concerns about child poverty or employment law or taxation etc.

    There is no political party in NZ that would not vociferously oppose a racist comment like “black people are prone to be rapists”. My aim is to have every political party in NZ equally strongly opposed to sexist comments like “We live in a rape culture.”

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 10th October 2018 @ 9:10 pm

  201. @ 196 and 197

    Dear Mama and MOMA and to everyone well meaning . Thank you for your support of our mini meeting.

    POLICE . Imagine their shock when a group of let’s say 15 men and some women , why not ?, ask them to come and advise us how to protect us against female and other domestic violence and/or how to reduce the number of male suicides etc. That would be a day to remember ha ha

    Number of attendees are not that important as recently three policemen spend two hours with 8 women from Asia female leaders group advising them how to protect themselves against violent , of course , men.

    We have to do that , we have to point out , respectfully, to the Police the other side of the story and make some of the well meaning but brain washed constables even fora moment heir common sense and fair play when on the next men arresting/discriminating mission. They will come , not because they want but because they can ill afford to be publicly seen as gender biased and men intimidating. Imagine, when the news papers will catch a sniff at such a meeting !!!. Privately , they both may think we are crazy but they will come just to be seen as a fair and unbiased .

    WE should start softly, softly catching monkeys among Police/journalists/feminists . We have to plant the seeds of doubt on their next next men bashing/arresting/discriminating/reporting mission.

    Young men not coming, Yep, I am aware of that. But that is why we are more experienced than they are, and we should teach them about the benefits of such meeting. We can also invite our female so they will find us more credible .

    While women are usually very vocal and men critical on such meetings , we ,the men. can’t afford such a luxury . Softly, softly catching monkeys .

    If we came to feminists meetings , first we shall be seen as intruders but if we behave respectfully toward them by not opposing their vocal and aggressive gender bias , even if it means suppressing our true feelings , they will get used to us as a contributing non threatening factor .
    Mama , women have the ears and the full attention and sympathy of the Court, Police , CYF etc. We don’t . We only have to come , mingle and behave and say few things , just to break the existing stereotypes of ” violent/abusive” men .

    I can see that happening easily . I volunteer to organize such a meeting and get the numbers .

    Comment by george simonovski — Thu 11th October 2018 @ 12:42 am

  202. Dear George, thank you, now I understand. It would be great to talk to police to let them in on the landslide of prejudice for men in these cases of separation and communications breakdown.

    …yes, the women do have the full ears of the system and the lack of knowledge of what happens to the ‘other side’ is detremental for men.

    I would be only too happy to join you in arms to attend such meetings. I am in Auckland.

    Comment by mama — Thu 11th October 2018 @ 9:30 am

  203. Hi Audi Alteram Partem, how do i get in touch with you? Regards.

    Comment by shu shu — Fri 12th October 2018 @ 12:04 pm

  204. It is EQUAL RIGHTS for men agenda then???

    Comment by mama — Wed 17th October 2018 @ 12:40 pm

  205. @204 No doubt all the participants will have an opinion, but I think equal rights for men has a nice ring to it 🙂

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Wed 17th October 2018 @ 4:11 pm

  206. @ MAMA . Thank you . Hope you are coming to the meeting

    Comment by george simonovski — Wed 17th October 2018 @ 6:49 pm

  207. Hi George, Yes, and thank you, indeed my intention.

    Comment by mama — Wed 17th October 2018 @ 6:57 pm

  208. Will there be any meeting of this sort in Wellington?

    Comment by Sam Butler — Thu 18th October 2018 @ 6:07 pm

  209. Hi Sam, there are good contacts to be found in Wellington…

    Comment by mama — Thu 18th October 2018 @ 9:47 pm

  210. @208 Hi Sam. We, if there is even a “we” yet, are in a very nascent phase. So far there is one meeting planned in Auckland on the 3 November that 6 people are planning to attend. If all “my” wildest dreams came true this would become a national movement with regional groups all around the country. Would you like to contribute in Wellington?

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Thu 18th October 2018 @ 10:22 pm

  211. I am impressed that this discussion has gone on for so long. A few frustrated comments, a little trolling, but also a wealth of sensible ideas and complaints. I cannot recall any thread going on for so long, with so many valuable comments. I suspect that few have read it carefully enough to pick up on all of the disparate issues raised.
    A lot of progress has been made.
    As far as I can see, it looks as though there are enough issues to keep several meetings occupied. But if people bring all of these issues to a single meeting as expectations, then there may be a lot of frustration?
    Although frustrations have been clearly expressed, the thread is short on solutions to work towards.
    I believe that before it is worth getting people together, it would be worthwhile to have quite a few positive solutions as options, to focus energies on going forward and clarify what the meeting will be about.
    That also clarifies what the meeting will cover and what it won’t, before people decide to attend.
    It looks as though there is enough material for 10 separate meetings, each closely focussed on one set of issues. Then the people in the room have a better chance of being on the same page and able to work positively with each other?
    Given that our resources are quite small, it is important that we try to be productive. A clear agenda also makes it practical to bring together past experiences and communicate these to attendees, before the meeting. Then they have time to think through the lessons from the past, before the meeting.
    There is more to making a meeting productive than turning up and being fed. John detailed these issues above.
    As Jims used to say, Onward.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 19th October 2018 @ 10:42 am

  212. Hi all,
    I can’t make it to this meeting but I am very pleased to see it being organised. I offer you my moral support.
    Can I suggest that prior to the meeting you have a chair to run the meeting and keep it moving forward and also an agenda?
    You can always add things to the end of the agenda as you go.
    Also have some alternative to air issues deemed to be outside of the agenda. For example, you might agree to setup a working group to address a specific area/issue rather than discuss it further in this meeting.
    I realise I’m not telling you anything new. It’s just that things we men would do automatically in a work environment, we somehow often neglect to do when dealing with these issues.

    Men are brilliant and disciplined organisers. My experience is that for several reasons, including emotional ones, men fall down at being so well organised and disciplined on these sorts of issues. Which is not surprising given what many men have been through.

    Good luck with all of it.

    Comment by Vman — Fri 19th October 2018 @ 1:29 pm

  213. @211. Gosh Murray, as we who don’t work in mental health say, you’re a hard nut to crack. But “cracking nuts” gets me out of bed in the morning – so I persist.

    As far as I can see, it looks as though there are enough issues to keep several meetings occupied.

    It looks as though there is enough material for 10 separate meetings, each closely focussed on one set of issues.

    Really Murray? More talk, talk; talk talk – talk, talk, talk? I bet if we tried hard enough we could spin those 10 meetings discussing the 10 issues into a series of hui that could last 10 years. By that time another (at least) 4,750 men will have killed themselves. “We” don’t have anymore time for talking about “issues”. The time now is for brief and very focused talking about action and then taking action.

    But if people bring all of these issues to a single meeting as expectations, then there may be a lot of frustration?

    I stated in the post that started this thread what the meeting will be about:

    The meeting will focus on what actions we can take to mitigate or eliminate harms being foisted on men by widely held but erroneous beliefs about men. It will be about strategy and action.

    I think by now the people who have “expectations” that the meeting will be about anything different to what I originally suggested have been weeded out. Those who want to use the platform of men’s rights to attack any left leaning party, demean women, or call feminists names like “silly bitches”, won’t be frustrated… because they haven’t advised that they are coming.

    I believe that before it is worth getting people together, it would be worthwhile to have quite a few positive solutions as options, to focus energies on going forward and clarify what the meeting will be about.

    Yep Murray. Great idea! Been there, done that… err… as per my comment at 75.

    Here’s some starters for a brain-storming session on actions the group could take.
    ~ Form a charitable trust and raise money by donation.
    ~ How about “Men’s Lives Matter” as a working title?
    ~ Use the money raised to pay sympathetic lawyers to help men in the family court.
    ~ Subsidise counselling for abused men.
    ~ Get influential people as patrons and on the board.
    ~ Seek out sympathetic journalists.
    ~ Start a men’s refuge and lobby for government funding for that.
    ~ Be so level-headed that the press seek us out for informed but controversial comment on gender issues
    ~ Lobby the Institute of Judicial Studies so that their Domestic Violence training of Judges is no longer weighted towards seeing the man as the perpetrator.
    ~ Ditto for Police training.
    ~ Facilitate support groups for abused and disenfranchised men.
    ~ Hold to account journalists, commentators and academics when they tell horrible lies about men.

    You say:

    There is more to making a meeting productive than turning up and being fed.

    Wow! Thanks for your insight and wisdom Murray. I thought that’s all there was to it! Jeez Murray. My having a convivial nature doesn’t mean I’m stupid.

    As Jims used to say, Onward.

    True dat! Then honour his memory by doing something other than going backwards or sideways!

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Fri 19th October 2018 @ 9:01 pm

  214. @212. Thanks for your support Vman. I too hope that the meeting will go well and will seed snowballing actions that will save men from harm. I look forward to your future involvement.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Fri 19th October 2018 @ 9:10 pm

  215. @213 (i.e. me) To paraphrase. Methinks we need you Murray. Please help.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Fri 19th October 2018 @ 10:10 pm

  216. We just need to make some noise. Not, I would suggest, an annoying cacophony that will be disregarded, but… a sound that rings true and will attract attention.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Sat 20th October 2018 @ 6:54 am

  217. #213 Dear Audi,
    As far as I can see, we are agreeing?
    You have listed 12 items, each of which could be productively discussed for an hour, or two, or three.
    Looking through this thread, other people have raised issues around CYFs, prosecution of men for assault and sexual assault in District Court, men being hampered in bringing up their own children. So we are up to 15 topics and these latter topics can be discussed productively for days.
    You have suggested the need to cut down to the most important topics and I have suggested the same too. As these topics cover shared ground, it is very difficult to define where one topic ends and the next starts. I would say impossible.
    So hopefully this thread can move more into clarifying which topics to move into first? Ideally, also try to set limits on the breadth of the selected topics.

    #215 I don’t see that you need me in any way, but thank you for the rare opportunity to stroke my out of control ego!
    I am keen to help in general, particularly by making old information available, where that might help.
    Although I have tried to archive material, I am guessing I can only cover about 5 to 10% of the activism that has gone on.
    I wish I could offer better coverage. I know that there is much information and experience around, that I don’t have access to, that is valuable. For various reasons, most men are not willing to share, or don’t see how other people could learn something useful from their experiences.
    End result is too much reinventing of old wheels, for no good reason. This holds us back.
    On the 3rd of November I am attending a different meeting. The PWW meeting was confirmed a couple of weeks after this thread started and I accepted that clear and concrete invitation, from people that I know quite well. It includes some educational aspects, that I value. So I hope that this chance of circumstance is not taken as a negative comment from me.
    I have taken part in this thread only for the purpose of seeing if I can perhaps provide any background information. And I hope to learn about what comes out of the meeting.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Sat 20th October 2018 @ 11:02 am

  218. Dear Audi, I take my hat off to you!
    You have created more optimism than I have seen on MENZ for a small number of years.
    Best of all, it looks as though the people turning up will be those with a reasonable concept of working together.
    I would have preferred that the apparent agenda had been trimmed down a bit more, to make the meeting safer. But given the people showing up, that should be surmountable.
    I look forward to hearing what comes out of the meeting?
    I am guessing that irrespective of what agreement is made at the meeting, the most valuable outcomes will be:
    1. willingness to keep on meeting in the future and
    2. respect and appreciation of each other.

    Best wishes,

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 31st October 2018 @ 3:15 pm

  219. @218
    Dear Murray,
    Both John and I will be in attendance, similarly to the beginnings of “Fathers and Child Trust” in Auckland, both he and I were there initially, and it thrives to this day with an honorable mention of my inclusion last “Fathers Day Picnic” at Ambury Park.
    I do not expect anything further than a “free lunch”; Although, I have previously pledged assistance in funding this initial meeting.
    After major funding of a Political Party and trying to establish “Refuges for Men with Families” in East & South Auckland, this is pocket money.
    Respect guaranteed.
    Fruition perhaps in limbo.

    Kindest Regards

    Comment by Paul Catton — Wed 31st October 2018 @ 9:18 pm

  220. Dear Paul, Murray an all, you, many of you here have much and such history in this field, I am trying to help in a small way on the ground and feel this is where I belong, to gain awareness of Mens Issues on a national scale, would really be SOMETHING., I hope it goes well.

    Comment by mama — Wed 31st October 2018 @ 9:38 pm

  221. godspeed (Your comment is too short. You are Hereby Ordered to try again.)

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 31st October 2018 @ 9:44 pm

  222. I cannae elaborate really, well no much,,, I have told Audi of my unattendance, I say that I genuinely think at this level I dunnae have much to offer as I feel, that time can be split for your own and the need of others, ie; my son suggested swimming tonight and I jumped at the chance to buoy him because as you know small steps can be big steps,,,, and hopefully this meeting can also start only to gain big shoes…but I am enjoying a small beginning I hope to grow in the same fields, thank you for asking/demanding Axe.

    Comment by mama — Wed 31st October 2018 @ 9:59 pm

  223. night time thoughts…a wild world…Nr Cat Stevens!

    Comment by mama — Wed 31st October 2018 @ 10:39 pm

  224. I am unable to attend in person this weekend. I am interested to here what comes out of the meeting and willing to support matters as they apply to parenting and fatherhood issues. I could attend by telephone and comment about Kidz Need Dadz activities if that is useful. Our NZ Chairperson is currently overseas. We are offering support for fathers and children in Tauranga, Rotorua, HawkesBay, Taranaki (limited), and the Southern part of the North Island (Whanganui, Manawatu, Wairarapa, Horowhenua and Wellington). Allan 0272420112

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 11:20 am

  225. Good luck tomorrow.

    Wondering if time allows or otherwise it could be noted that the Law Commission has come up with these ideas on the Relationship Property Act just this week.
    I see danger in their proposals and consider legal type people are the wrong ones to look at and review this legislation.
    They are asking for submissions so may be there will be an opportunity for new group to respond.


    Comment by john — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 11:27 am

  226. I have been hearing some scarey scenarios around the house, the spouse and the children.

    I could not agree more about the law commission and the legal field being tasked with such a review, who would be best??

    Comment by mama — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 11:36 am

  227. Personally I would have a committee of six or eight guys from different backgrounds who have been right through the process.
    Nothing like having experience of the system .Pool ideas and come up with a submission .
    I still believe ‘fault ‘ should be the key and marriage should be the standard, not this Clark inspired dismantling of society into ‘relationships’ and ‘equality’..
    Maybe I am grumpy biased.

    Comment by john — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 1:42 pm

  228. 227, if you are grumpy biased, then this is what are swag of our people of the beautiful, fantastical, apparently oh so friendly NZ are also. you ARE NOT ALONE!!

    Comment by mama — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 2:16 pm

  229. @224 Hi Allen,

    As a first meeting, I think we will be just finding our way. In my mind how we will relate to affiliated groups will be important but it will be the will of the collective group that decides if and when this takes priority. We will certainly keep you informed about how we get on.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 3:07 pm

  230. @225 and 227, Hi John.

    When I originally proposed the meeting I suggested the following focus:

    “The meeting will focus on what actions we can take to mitigate or eliminate harms being foisted on men by widely held but erroneous beliefs about men.”

    I can’t predict what the meeting will end up focusing on. My personal concern is that efforts for men’s rights get diluted by differences of opinion over matters that may be associated with men’s rights. Things like family values and divorce laws (as with many things) impact on men (and women) but are not necessarily about denying men’s rights as such.

    I have heard on the news about the Law Commission looking at separation laws. Do you have specific concerns about how the Law Commission’s proposed legislative changes would deny men their rights because of their gender?

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 3:27 pm

  231. The rubbish started back in 1995 with Hillary Clinton and her run for the Presidency at the the Beijing Conference – Women’s rights are Human rights.

    This is apparently some utopian road to world peace.

    When we get over this and back to the rights of the family we might get somewhere.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Fri 2nd November 2018 @ 3:53 pm

  232. How many times has the Attorney General’s report to parliament on each piece of legislation said, “Inconsistent with the Bill of Rights.”

    Has that every stopped legislation being passed?

    Have those inconsistencies concerning men ever been addressed?

    Comment by Evan Myers — Sat 3rd November 2018 @ 8:47 am

  233. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaany update?

    Comment by JustCiurious — Mon 5th November 2018 @ 7:01 pm

  234. There was attendance by myself, John Potter, Audi (the convener), George & Voices.
    It was a nice lunch amidst good company.

    Nothing was set in concrete regarding forward action that emanated from this initial meeting.

    Observations included the disjointed and often controversial attitudes of our fellow “men” when persons seek unity in an attempt to redress the faced challenges.

    Audi, from his manifesto, did provide most of the “practiced” injustices and discrimination faced by men in today’s society both “overtly and covertly”.
    Possible solutions to combat these practices he had also documented.

    Many of the solutions are straightforward and have been attempted previously, mostly without tangible result.
    Again, this stems back to a lack of unity, regarding networking, support, financing, logistics and all else that may be required.

    There are a plethora of attacks upon gender male, and there is a need to undertake each one separately, provide a united front, refrain from rhetoric and be dignified when providing the warranted remedial solution.

    Comment by Paul Catton — Mon 5th November 2018 @ 9:46 pm

  235. Sounds like the key issue was identified – that is good.
    But it spurred an idea, and I dare to float it here.
    We read so many items in the media every day, where if the target demographic were swapped for any other, on race, gender, sexual identity, religion grounds then there would be angry violent outrage and in some cases perhaps even death. But as males – its okay to kick us.
    So what if a site was created which openly mirrored daily news items, but with the demographic changed. Understand, We mean no deception, and make it clear that in so much as the demographic is changed, its not the original item. What would such a site be called “Do you hate your son?” or something else provocative perhaps. The aim being that people who might have read the item in main-stream, can be faced with the balancing case – and in a way which might make them understand their own prejudices and bias. And maybe it helps that they can learn that lesson in private and save public confrontation. Well this might be a seed – what do you guys think – any growth potential?

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 6:18 am

  236. That’s a great idea Keith.

    I think there would be some clearly abhorrent examples.

    Comment by DJ Ward — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 7:00 am

  237. Feminist ideology

    Feminism is synonymous with groups that represent sexual agendas, minorities or issues of race.

    Sexism is not an issue that deserves any great attention.

    That’s the way they see it.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 8:28 am

  238. Evan @237:- I’m not sure you were responding to Kiwi @235? If you were, then I would ask what better idea you have to offer? Can you build on it, or propose something else thats better? Surely at least by doing something , even if not perfect, is good because we can learn from it. Better than just shooting ideas down as they arise. Most often its kind of like playing “Whack-a-mole” here.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 8:58 am

  239. @238 Keith, the average non affected citizen has probably never read any Feminist literature.

    They have a stated position on sexism like they do many other things and they are actually serious about it.

    I applaud the amount of effort (Actual and Literary) that Moma put into the endless ‘Sexism Posts’.

    We became conflicted about their value, and the postings along those lines now are minimal.

    A dedicated website I would suggest would fall into the current media overload category of fake news. That is a medium that the net is becoming increasingly hostile toward.

    It may seem like whack-a-mole to you Keith, I totally understand that perspective, but when it comes to confrontational tactics of the net, it’s a vicious game that is way ahead of you.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 9:25 am

  240. Many thanks Paul.
    Great Initiative.

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 9:39 am

  241. I just put this Comment Here.

    If you want to understand this go back to what Murray Bacon said in #29

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 10:08 am

  242. Of recent Jan Logie upped the anti we she put forward the proposal of Government CEOs being accountable for failing to meet a women’s rights policy threshold.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 11:41 am

  243. Well I guess the concensus is that this idea is not worth building, or being substituted with a better one. personally I think there are many different strengths and attributes here – but having a dedication to just one does shut down all other initiatives as soon as they are thought of. And yes I know there is a lot of effort and fine work done, but don’t we measure work by results? In my view there is room for many different approaches. Feminists exploit media, mainstream and other – so why is it so pointless for us to work on that too. Looking at this, really I don’t think there would be a point to me travelling North to attend meetings – it looks like a closed shop already.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 4:38 pm

  244. Concensus Keith is a real problem.

    When there is a sudden change in your space you get a fright, perhaps stressed, make a spur of the moment decision and hope for best.

    The social change has been so rapid, dramatic, with intended and unintended consequences – we’re basically in a state of confusion.

    The only real cohesion is a loose dialogue run by feminists. If you shut the media and social media down tomorrow, they’d be screwed and we wouldn’t be trying to hold the world together and fight them at the same time, like we are now.

    They’re a nightmare in daylight and we need to get rid of them.

    That idea may not have won the lottery but any others are welcome.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 5:03 pm

  245. I wonder where father Audi the sanctimonious one has hid?
    I think though generating over 230 comments and getting 5 men together for a sensible discussion is something to be applauded.
    If anyone sees him, could they let him know I am very interested in his feedback after the meet?
    I am also very interested in his manifesto and input during the meeting.
    Unless it has already been displayed here? And I missed it?
    Please and thanks

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 5:43 pm

  246. Our dialogue should be, we are cohesive.
    “Semantic and pedantic” needs to be eradicated from our voices seeking the path forward.

    @35 The social change has been so rapid, dramatic, with intended and unintended consequences – we’re basically in a state of confusion.

    I agree, almost daily, further social changes are being considered and/or implemented that will disenfranchise gender male further.

    Social Justice Warriors giving voice of (Socrates/Plato/Marx or “insert your favorite philosopher here”) to tide the stem of current discrimination of men, whilst behind a keyboard will not stem this juggernaut facing society.
    Provide solutions not not carping.
    Unity before all, as #men-matter-too

    Comment by Paul Catton — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 5:58 pm

  247. @245 JC, Now believing you to be a TROLL.

    Thus part of the problem.

    Should you wish to dispute I can be contacted 0220140025

    Comment by Paul Catton — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 6:02 pm

  248. @245 Sanctimonious eh?
    If you check your email JC (the one you use for Menz) you’ll find a note from my mother excusing me from Menz School on account of my hurt feelings when the other boys call me names.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 7:28 pm

  249. YEay, you are back Audi, I missed you.

    🙂 I just wrote the longest post documenting your mistakes and flaws.

    Will you mind if I post it here? Or do you prefer it by email?

    Wanming, it is very critical but good eventually in my not so humble opinion if you can handle criticism.

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 7:43 pm

  250. Paul, you are right, I was trolling,
    I was surprised you acted as a spokesman for Audi
    And it concerned me that Audi may have given up.
    Nothing but a little sarcasm to raise even the dead : )
    Seems it has worked. Best regards

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 7:49 pm

  251. Further to @233 and @234:

    We introduced ourselves and each spoke and bit about our journey here.

    We touched briefly on what sort of group we could be (philosophically speaking) and agreed that we were egalitarian in being concerned about equity and human rights for all.

    I presented a (too long) list of things we could do that seemed perhaps daunting in it’s magnitude.

    Some of the concrete things suggested were:

    > Re-invigorating the Black Ribbon Campaign (Pending MoMA’s agreement and support).
    > Talking with feminist groups.
    > Talking with the Police
    > Expanding membership.
    > Getting funding (more from donations rather than public funding – at least initially)
    > Making contact with affiliated groups.
    > Making contact with potential supporters.
    > Starting a grass-roots (spare bed or couch) men’s refuge.
    > Making spaces for men’s supervised access to children that are more male friendly.
    > Staring a YouTube channel to get wider public break through.
    > Making original content, including cartoons, for the YouTube channel.
    > Publicly telling the stories of men hurt by discrimination.
    > Starting a web site.

    It was generally agreed that creating a formal incorporated association (let alone one that might qualify as a registered charity) would be too big an undertaking to start with.

    My personal sense was of some ‘battle weariness’ in the group, but that this was exceeded by a determination to do something to make a difference.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 8:06 pm

  252. @ 249 Bring it on JC!

    Post away. I love criticism. No seriously! But… It needs to be constructive.

    Without being open to criticism our thoughts become incestuous.

    So… When a mummy thought has a ‘special hug’ with a daddy thought (in circumstances where the thoughts are already too closely related) you end up with baby thoughts that grow up to be… well… cretins!

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 8:20 pm

  253. @ 235 In my opinion Keith, your idea is absolutely spot on! We need to challenge the dominant discourse that is relentlessly disparaging of men.

    And while I’m at it, your earlier idea of telling your story, and telling the stories of other men, is also spot on.

    Taken together they make a potent challenge to the excesses of feminism. The more that people tell horrible lies about men, the more it becomes acceptable to treat men like scum, and this hurts men and their families dreadfully, up to and including suicide.

    My slogan for this: “While you keep lying – we keep dying.”

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 8:37 pm

  254. # 251 and all the attendees,,,that is quite a list, working in the the mens groups already in existence would be a great start, especially in order to keep up momentum. Mens shed has been recommended to men needing support which has had them busy, a website for direct contact to direct help would be a good thing.
    It is always surprising to find men out there that do not know where to turn.
    The largest more commercial mens groups just link you to life line etc, etc.
    To provide a real ear with real advice backed by action is precious.
    Quite a few groups can do this but they are different name and have different regions, not many span NZ. So a hub would be valuable to offer best start to help and advice.

    The idea of some where to go during visits with the kids would be an amazing thing, maybe local councils could be asked to provide somewhere.

    I still like the idea of an inaugaral get together for all mens groups, so as to show solidarity and raise awareness that there is help out there. Quite a few mens groups were keen on the idea and offered help once ideas were established.

    Comment by mama — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 9:03 pm

  255. @250

    “I was surprised you acted as a spokesman for Audi”

    Incorrect: I gave a report from my perspective, by my attendance at a meeting, which was open to all and sundry, especially the voyeurs of this website.

    I have little time for “sarcasm” with the seriousness of the situation.
    I will continually support any action by any persons attempting to redress the same.

    If Ben Easton or Wayne Pruden (or anyone else) wants to walk the length of the country again, I will gladly fund decent hiking boots and sustenance monies.
    Would it be tangible? Probably not as any current support from our “disaffected men” would be non-existent.

    Could there have been further actions, “We” generally, could have taken that might have stopped Paul McManaway committing suicide, a couple of weeks after Jim Bagnall brought him round to my home to talk, and perhaps garnish a perspective of his situation for redress, perhaps, however both Jim and I were lacking.
    Jim had to travel down to Central NZ to identify the resultant corpse.

    My attempted suicide resulted in a good dose of pepper spray and handcuffs (some would say thankfully, others perhaps not).

    Father and Child Trust (Brendan), Allan Harvey, MOMA, Downunder, Murray, Anthony (with skilled participants) and his group meetings at Melville Park and not forgetting the huge support behind
    There are many, many others but without unity and respect for each other, we piss in the wind.

    Rant over, and always the kindest of regards

    Comment by Paul Catton — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 9:07 pm

  256. Good rant Paul.

    Half the time my compliments cause injuries
    and my apologies add insults.

    So I am very afraid to add anything to your comment
    for fear of causing you more frustration.

    If you are expecting an apology for my comment,
    I am happy to give you my opinion instead.

    I do not know you but I like you.

    I admire people who can pack a lot of good sense in a few words.

    So Thank you for blessing me with a whole rant.

    Comment by JustCurious — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 10:24 pm

  257. Has any one had a look at the ‘voices for hope’ website, I thought it a good example, they have a section where people tell of their own stories.

    Comment by mama — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 10:40 pm

  258. voices of hope, sorry, they have a section for video as well.

    Comment by mama — Tue 6th November 2018 @ 10:46 pm

  259. Thanks Audi for organising the venue and for lunch. !
    Yes there was some battle weariness but I did notice that
    did nothing to curb your determination.
    I’ll be in touch privately to discuss the list you’ve posted above
    And what steps we can take to get things moving.
    Just got a very hectic next few days so will be in touch soon
    Still no word from the hrc. Still could go either way.
    Thanks to others that were able to join us. !

    Comment by Voices back from the bush. — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 12:05 am

  260. Downunder @44:- “Concensus Keith is a real problem.” Yes I have noticed that. But instead of yet again naming the problem, whith you great knowledge and abilities, you might try to find inspiration, a solution and build something useful. And to me most all your replies come across as absolutely patronising.

    Comment by kiwi keith — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 5:52 am

  261. #260 difficulties around concensus was what I commented on in #41.

    Sorry you didn’t find that useful.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 8:44 am

  262. Priorities first-


    This is the problem among men.
    I think women have become the new men out of necessity.
    And men are left foraging for their manhood under women’s skirts.

    This is obvious from all the bickering.
    WE are bitching about the family courts and injustice but we ourselves are no better.
    Maybe it is not the laws but the human element?
    And things are the way they are because there is no other way.
    WE are children and we refuse to grow up and be counted

    One says one thing, one destroys it with an argument,
    another says something in support, another says something to destroy that same argument again….
    by the time matters get to the judge, Lawyers are so rich and wealthy they don’t give a fuck what the outcome is. The Judge has not idea what to look at and he/she picks whatever shit floats on top and sends everyone packing until the next time. Nothing gets done, nothing gets solved but the matter never dies and the hurt increase…

    So the meeting went well I think.
    Good sensible output was expressed.
    Results have been delivered and a sensible program and outline defined.

    I think we all owe thanks to Audi and anyone that has attended.
    And from what has been gathered, we must raise hands and be counted….

    The question is how to make one thing out of that list come to life?

    Not all, yet… Just one thing

    ONE F^C%&*G thing!

    Comment by JustCurious — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 9:11 am

  263. Some of the concrete things suggested were:

    > Re-invigorating the Black Ribbon Campaign (Pending MoMA’s agreement and support).
    What can you do?
    > Talking with feminist groups.
    How can you help?
    > Talking with the Police
    Who would be best? in what areas and what level of Police?
    > Expanding membership.
    Who wants to be involved – raise your hands
    > Getting funding (more from donations rather than public funding – at least initially)
    Sausage sizzle anyone?
    > Making contact with affiliated groups.
    Some of us are already – who else wants to participate,learn, volunteer?
    > Making contact with potential supporters.
    Who is good at Public relation?
    > Starting a grass-roots (spare bed or couch) men’s refuge.
    Opinion unsure about this – I shy away from making it easier to get men ex-pulsed from their own home because of more couch availability ( I concede it is going to happen anyway and what better way to raise consciousness in the supportive family members…)
    > Making spaces for men’s supervised access to children that are more male friendly.
    What a great idea? How can we get that going?
    > Staring a YouTube channel to get wider public break through.
    This is a must and coincides with Murray’s suggestion to KiwiKeith – maybe monetize channel, get donations and create independent funding platform
    > Making original content, including cartoons, for the YouTube channel.
    as above – yeah why not put our creative juices to use – counter advertising maybe?
    > Publicly telling the stories of men hurt by discrimination.
    as above – sign up if you want to tell your story… haahaha bad language welcome
    > Starting a web site.
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm —- This is a wordpress site and I am sure John could use a private area of this site to get us started and maybe to some extent draw sensible advertising to generate fundings towards his own website and the surplus towards this movement. No need to reinvent the wheel

    Comment by JustCurious — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 9:24 am

  264. Concensus….out of seventeen mens groups contacted via email,,, 6 replied with interest when I posed the idea of an event to bring them all together for one day, regionally , possibly otherwise,, to do something annually would be fantastic of course. Maybe funding to get a rep from every group to attend any summit/conference being held would be a good start.

    Comment by mama — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 9:44 am

  265. #263 This is a WordPress site, you noticed that?

    Nothing overly difficult about them but for those that struggle with basic technology, John does do tutorials.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 11:38 am

  266. 265- did you notice anything further about the post you are commenting on?

    Comment by JustCurious — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 12:00 pm

  267. For those seeking to debate feminists.

    And in general how to best deal with cross examination.

    Know your facts and stick to your facts

    Comment by JustCurious — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 7:05 pm

  268. @256 JC


    Comment by Paul Catton — Wed 7th November 2018 @ 8:57 pm

  269. Audi @53 :- I cannot really set up the reflecting site myself, but I imagined there maybe skilled people who liked the idea, or if not, it myight have caused them to have a better one. As for our story, I actually found it more difficult to talk to myself,even with a good recording device. So i have been working on Word document version. Probably the better way to go really since I wrote about eight years of the story, and when having a coffee, then remembered stuff I hadnot included, but give a more complete picture. So a re-edit an then more recollections and more re-edits. There is still much to do – many years to cover. And that is the thing, these stories never end. Even after i’m gone, the kids carry the consquences and probably there kids and so on. I am sure that is a fact feminists never want to acknowledge.
    So remind me, where/who will the repository for these stories be?

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Thu 8th November 2018 @ 6:48 am

  270. @269 Working on it as we speak Keith. Hold tight. I’ll get back to you.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sat 10th November 2018 @ 11:43 am

  271. Paul Catton could you please e-mail me. I had an inquiry about refuge work in South Auckland yesterday that may interest you. allan “at” xtra dot co dot nz

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Sat 10th November 2018 @ 12:00 pm

  272. another page in the book of aborted dreams

    The END

    I wonder if there is one thing we might learn from all of this.

    There was supposed to be a meeting of men

    Hundred of voices thundered and said yay!

    oH what a celebration it was,

    and such a lively contest too

    but words got thrown and quarrels ensued

    The good MC’s extorted his men to reason

    But he found his mike bugged

    and the secession began

    soldier went against soldier,

    and there the war went.

    Next morning only six appeared

    And the other camp sat musing

    Do we fight or do we retreat?

    we expected an army of men

    but only sex in this one

    Comment by JustCurious — Sat 24th November 2018 @ 1:36 am

  273. Audi@ 270; I detect some confusion around what form these stories will will take? One person I have been in touch with, seems to like books – and these books would probably have glossy hard covers, be a professional and therefore expensive job. I can’t do that. Feminists insert “VICTIM” stories in Newspapers, sites and magazines – not to mention leaflets. That way the stories are published but don’t break the bank.
    I have been working on our story to such completeness that there a few readers may be well forwarned as to how corruptly the supposed good people and organisations often do act. Because of this, at some stage, it might be made into a book, or a chapter in a complilation – but that would be beyond my ability and emotional stamina to do.
    Maybe there is some person with the skill set and psychological stability to do such a job – well it could happen. So to sum up,: yes I am working on the story, but it won’t be professionally edited or a published item which could have an ISBN or find place on the Public Library shelves.
    A person has flattered my abilities. Flattery is not real and is totally unjustified. I have written a draft history book. Not a project of interest or passion, but a chore of duty. Kind of like writing about unpleasant family matters. There are a lot of parallels. I have produced draft after draft having to get the tricky wording legally correct – yes I am threatened with legal action and am freely defamed. See, it has a lot in common with family stories. In this world its not enough to be right and have the evidence, one needs to afford $$ to be right. I can’t afford that. All the same, I have produced a draft unpublished book, and this has taught me a lot. It guides me in what I am writing for the family cause.
    So I can produce the story, but if a published book is what is wanted, then it will be beyond me.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Sat 24th November 2018 @ 6:38 am

  274. Keith, could you post it on some of the mens’ sites?

    Comment by mama — Sat 24th November 2018 @ 9:49 am


    is anyone going to this event???

    Comment by mama — Sat 24th November 2018 @ 10:29 am

  276. I apologise one thousand times to Mens’ groups that are doing the work out there on behalf of NZ, for my doubt that really came from looking at some of the LARGER more funded Mens’ sites.

    The likes of the event organised in the above link, is no mean task to pull together, I hope that it goes well, I have not heard anyone talk of this event here.

    I came across this information while looking at Mens’ sites where you can upload video or post your story.

    Can someone point to an all inclusive Mens’ site whereby you can voice your story where it will be heard/seen by others looking for solidarity?,,source advice and be pointed to your local mens’ group, be kept up with all events from all sources in support of Men??

    Comment by mama — Sat 24th November 2018 @ 10:53 am

  277. What a sock on the jaw, I googled Mens’ videos NZ, and the headline that came up first….


    Comment by mama — Sat 24th November 2018 @ 11:09 am

  278. @273. Hi Keith.

    We are working on setting up a website that would include a section where stories about people being harmed by discrimination against men can be stored and researched. The thinking at this early stage is that these stories would mostly need to be anonymous. It may help some people for professional (or at least competent) writers to assist or edit the writing of these stories. Short-form stories (a few paragraphs) are the ones that most people (these days) have the concentration span to read, but links could be provided to some stories told in more detail.

    I will be in touch once we have have the web-site set up.

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 25th November 2018 @ 9:05 pm

  279. @272

    “The END”

    … ???

    In the immortal words of Mark Twain. ‘The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.’

    Comment by Audi Alteram Partem — Sun 25th November 2018 @ 9:28 pm

  280. THE END

    is always


    Ayn Rand: “A government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims.”

    “There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”

    and or as long as men sit on their hands and talk and feminists squeal, the squeaky wheel of discord will require more grease from the government

    Comment by JustCurious — Sun 25th November 2018 @ 11:57 pm

  281. work hard – play hard

    no time for foreplay.

    and with that oxytocin withdrawal syndrome 🙂

    blue is the only color left in the rainbowl

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 26th November 2018 @ 12:10 am

  282. above for post 277- re kiwi men and wet socks in bed

    Comment by JustCurious — Mon 26th November 2018 @ 12:11 am

  283. #,, Audi,,, YEEHAH !,,, A website will be fantastic!!!, NZ is sadly lacking, although there are connections, they are not cohesive, I hope the website will bring the Mens’ groups to the fore as well.
    The major ones like Movember and Mens Health are terrible, but the groups who have been set up by real men with real concern are really worth backing.

    Comment by mama — Mon 26th November 2018 @ 7:30 am

  284. Here is an example from the Herald site this morning – it is an item which I think is begging to be mirrored as discussed –

    Comment by kiwi Keith — Fri 30th November 2018 @ 5:57 am


    Comment by Evan Myers — Fri 30th November 2018 @ 6:47 am

  286. I like that SPEIGHTS Adveristement, but I don’t see how it fits. But Just to show we have no shortage of material, here is another from STUFF today, which to my mind suggests all men are lazy and women do it all.–but-women-need-to-stop-stepping-in

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Fri 30th November 2018 @ 7:19 am

  287. # Kiwi Keith,,, that would be a good example to turn around.

    In my generation of women, we were largely married, some of us even got to be housewives.

    I met a lot of these peers along the way and discovered their impeccable standards demanded of their households and the house itself. In some cases the very vitrious bathrooms and showroom public spaces they maintained were the things that broke up their marriages.

    I am not sure why women have such a high standard of living their atmosphere, it served to drive them crazy and the kids had to make sure and not disturb the hair on the furry cushions displayed on the couch. Not many, as you can imagine, loved animals enough to have them fireside inside the house.

    That is why I live in a cave, I love my dogs way too much to nag them to stay off the couch.

    Comment by mama — Fri 30th November 2018 @ 8:39 am

  288. @284 & 286: Yes we frequently see this patronizing stuff about males these days, replete with false claims and implications.

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Fri 30th November 2018 @ 9:25 am

  289. mama@87: wrote “I am not sure why women have such a high standard of living their atmosphere,” – I almost choked reading that. Such cleanliness and hygeine may be the culture you grew up in, but to my experience its not common among females.

    Comment by kiwi Keith — Fri 30th November 2018 @ 10:42 am

  290. #289,,Kiwi Keith,, nope, I did not grow up in that kind of culture, it did not really exist, but the women I knew through work and time seemed to have an obsession with nice surroundings and for that matter I think NZ in general has an obsession about their houses, and now the expectation of beauty and class in ones surroundings seems to have grown, no one seems to want to start at the bottom and do not buy second hand, cleanliness obsession has been causing major problems with water systems clogged with wipes and gross chemical use could serve to cause harm in other ways too.

    Comment by mama — Fri 30th November 2018 @ 11:40 am

  291. mama #290:- Actually mama or dada whichever you are, I did not insinuate that was the culture you grew up in; nor did I say it was the one I grew in either. However that said I have been around many women over the years and I had my male friends too, and I report that to my experience females have no legitimate claim to being tidier, cleaner than males. In fact the dirtiest things I have encountered were from women. And here is one example for you: – I used to clean planes during their over-night lay-over. Inside the cabin we would clean out all the ash-trays and seat pockets. We would start at certain seats, reack in the pocket for a sick-bag which we wthen used as a rubbish bag. So in goes our hand to open the bag, and very often there would be a soiled sanitry pad there. Now that is disgusting unhygeinic thoroughly grubby. There are other stories but that will give you an idea. We live in a different world now.

    Comment by Kiwi Keith — Sat 1st December 2018 @ 12:37 pm

  292. #291,, Kiwi Keith, hell yeah, we do live in a different world now, one where a woman demands the best but can be the opposite behind closed doors or whatever,, the throwaway nappies in the carparks were a real turn off, Hypocracy is the word, but when blamed on stress and mental illness it becomes a right.

    Comment by mama — Sat 1st December 2018 @ 5:25 pm

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